Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
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07-06-2015, 04:24 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
What, because I think that there are no gods I should believe in science?

I don't believe in science, there is nothing to believe in.

I think the scientific process is pretty good. Science is a great way of learning about the world.

Just because I think the process is good doesn't mean I believe in it. It may have flaws I didn't notice ( I am not a scientist), and by it's very nature it keeps changing and correcting itself.

I am not fond of the word believe in the first place. I assume the sun will rise tomorrow. I don't necessarily believe it, for instance I could die in my sleep and for me, the sun would then not rise in the morning. Some sort of anomaly may happen and the sun might actually not rise, or not shed any light. But we all assume it will and proceed accordingly.

I also don't say that I believe there is no god. I think there is no god. My thoughts conclude that there is no god. What's to believe?

I try to stay away from the word "believe", there are much more concise ways of expressing what one thinks/expects/assumes.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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07-06-2015, 08:19 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(07-06-2015 08:58 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(07-06-2015 04:24 AM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  Examples?

There are Christian atheists.

Yabut, it's a stupid, oxymoronic term. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-06-2015, 10:54 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
When the word "faith" is used synonymously with the word "trust" or "understand" or "believe", then the word "faith" becomes meaningless.

So if you say that there is scientific faith, I have no idea what you or anyone else means. Even if you say that there are those who have faith in science I am not sure what you mean. Faith as I have always understood it is accompanied by religion and/or spiritual claims or are associated with the supernatural in more general terms.

Now, if you mean that faith is "trust without evidence", then any individual who is ignorant might be said to have faith in any number of things, but this is clearly not the same thing as "faith" in the common sense as it applies to a belief system.

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08-06-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 10:54 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  When the word "faith" is used synonymously with the word "trust" or "understand" or "believe", then the word "faith" becomes meaningless.

So if you say that there is scientific faith, I have no idea what you or anyone else means. Even if you say that there are those who have faith in science I am not sure what you mean. Faith as I have always understood it is accompanied by religion and/or spiritual claims or are associated with the supernatural in more general terms.

Now, if you mean that faith is "trust without evidence", then any individual who is ignorant might be said to have faith in any number of things, but this is clearly not the same thing as "faith" in the common sense as it applies to a belief system.
To me, faith is the belief that a proposition is valid. This is present in religion, science, voodoo.

As far as I can tell, it's mere presence cannot be the difference between religion and science. I think what underpins it and how contradicting information can affect it is the difference.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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08-06-2015, 11:57 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 11:40 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 10:54 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  When the word "faith" is used synonymously with the word "trust" or "understand" or "believe", then the word "faith" becomes meaningless.

So if you say that there is scientific faith, I have no idea what you or anyone else means. Even if you say that there are those who have faith in science I am not sure what you mean. Faith as I have always understood it is accompanied by religion and/or spiritual claims or are associated with the supernatural in more general terms.

Now, if you mean that faith is "trust without evidence", then any individual who is ignorant might be said to have faith in any number of things, but this is clearly not the same thing as "faith" in the common sense as it applies to a belief system.
To me, faith is the belief that a proposition is valid. This is present in religion, science, voodoo.

As far as I can tell, it's mere presence cannot be the difference between religion and science. I think what underpins it and how contradicting information can affect it is the difference.

Your definition of faith is therefore rather pointless because it is the same as belief.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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08-06-2015, 12:41 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 11:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 11:40 AM)tomilay Wrote:  To me, faith is the belief that a proposition is valid. This is present in religion, science, voodoo.

As far as I can tell, it's mere presence cannot be the difference between religion and science. I think what underpins it and how contradicting information can affect it is the difference.

Your definition of faith is therefore rather pointless because it is the same as belief.
It is the same as belief as far as I can tell. Virtually identical.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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08-06-2015, 01:10 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 12:41 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 11:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Your definition of faith is therefore rather pointless because it is the same as belief.
It is the same as belief as far as I can tell. Virtually identical.

Right, then the term "faith" is meaningless in that context. It has no value as it adds nothing more than what the term "belief" would.

But I don't imagine you'd equate a belief in gravity with a belief in a god. No matter if it is a layman's belief in both or an expert's.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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08-06-2015, 01:10 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 12:41 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 11:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Your definition of faith is therefore rather pointless because it is the same as belief.
It is the same as belief as far as I can tell. Virtually identical.

Virtually identical is not identical. Faith involves a belief but also involves the unknown.

I don't have faith that trees exist or that ice is cold even though I believe those claims because I have testable, demonstrable evidence of those claims. In those cases belief exists without faith.

Theists have faith that a god exists despite no such evidence. That is a belief that is based solely on faith and can't exist without it. As the bible says, "faith is the evidence" but there's no way to evaluate that evidence so it may as well not exist.

Saying I have faith in science, or my friends, or that the chair won't break if I sit on it is between the two but closer to the first. It makes some sense to call that kind of belief faith because it involves things I haven't personally investigated or which are expected to happen in the future so there is an element of the unknown involved. It is a very weak sort of faith though because I am basing the belief on past experience in the case of friends and chairs and my understanding of the history and the methods used in the case of science. I don't need faith to hold the beliefs because I have past evidence to support future expectations.

That's the problem with using the word faith to describe somebody's belief that science is the best way to understand the world. It isn't based on hopes, or fears, or authority, or anything but the body of evidence demonstrating what science has accomplished. Equating faith in god with faith in science is like the proverbial apples and oranges; whatever similarities there may be, the differences make it ring false.

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08-06-2015, 02:33 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 01:10 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 12:41 PM)tomilay Wrote:  It is the same as belief as far as I can tell. Virtually identical.

Right, then the term "faith" is meaningless in that context. It has no value as it adds nothing more than what the term "belief" would.

But I don't imagine you'd equate a belief in gravity with a belief in a god. No matter if it is a layman's belief in both or an expert's.
I wouldn't equate them because of what underpins them. If you believe in gravity, without the evidence, you are not any better than a religious adherent. Even though you could be right.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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08-06-2015, 03:22 PM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 02:33 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 01:10 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Right, then the term "faith" is meaningless in that context. It has no value as it adds nothing more than what the term "belief" would.

But I don't imagine you'd equate a belief in gravity with a belief in a god. No matter if it is a layman's belief in both or an expert's.
I wouldn't equate them because of what underpins them. If you believe in gravity, without the evidence, you are not any better than a religious adherent. Even though you could be right.

That's right, you wouldn't equate them because one is a faith-based belief and one is an evidence-based belief. Even the person who is largely ignorant of gravity understands it well enough to know that there is observable evidence behind it.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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