Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
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08-06-2015, 06:34 PM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 06:30 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 05:59 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Incorrect. There is independent reason (the theory of relativity) to believe in things like dark energy and if it were shown to be wrong tomorrow, it would be abandoned.

You don't need 100% verified evidence to believe something without taking it on faith.

By your logic, I take it on faith I'm alive and breathing and not in the matrix. And then at the same time, I take it on faith that Gravity is a valid scientific theory. And that I take it on faith that a God doesn't exist.

Using your definition of faith, there is no opinion hat exists without personal faith. And it's still synonymous with the word "belief."

When one word has the exact same definition and usage as another without adding anything, it's a pointless and meaningless term.
There are indeed good reasons why scientists believe in dark matter. I mention the track record of relativity. Gravity etc etc.

But can one ignore the fact that this is also a valid reason to question the validity of the theory? It's debatable. That is the beauty of science. I believe we are on the same page there.

Paradoxes in general challenge generally held assumptions. There is always a balance between incorporating a new idea to preserve a great hypothesis, and acknowledging the need for a radical shift.

In any case, there are scientists who think that declaring 85% of matter presently unobservable because that is how we reconcile relativity with observation is an unacceptable leap.

That is fine. Par for the course. But when one group of reasonable men chooses two diametrically opposed positions, the role of faith cannot be ignored.

Science has a great track record in the realm of epistemology. I believe it is our best bet. What distinguishes from other areas is not the presence of faith or lack thereof.

"What distinguishes from other areas is not the presence of faith or lack thereof."

What distinguishes science is its ability to make observations about reality without the need of faith.

In fact, faith in science would contradict the scientific method as well as the collective body of knowledge attained through it.

I think you're conflating the assumption that logic is axiomatic and that science uses logic, with science having faith or utilizing faith.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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08-06-2015, 06:36 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 05:57 PM)Banjo Wrote:  You see evidence the earth is flat? Have you never flown?
Yes. When I look at the ground. It looks flat. That is evidence. It might be good or bad evidence depending on perspective.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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08-06-2015, 06:36 PM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
Or to put it another way, if I have to assume on faith that an equation for calculating temperatures from oxygen isotopes is correct, I'm not doing any actual science because I'm ignoring the empirical evidence behind the linkage between temperature and isotopic fractionation.

Or, if I assume on faith that the model for sedimentary rock deposition is true, there is no room for interpretation and study of rocks because all I'd be doing is plugging in these assumptions everywhere I go.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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08-06-2015, 06:37 PM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 06:36 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 05:57 PM)Banjo Wrote:  You see evidence the earth is flat? Have you never flown?
Yes. When I look at the ground. It looks flat. That is evidence. It might be good or bad evidence depending on perspective.

But this requires you to ignore science in order to claim your evidence is valid.

Now, if you want to time travel a few thousand years before Eratosthenes, your observation might be more debatable.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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08-06-2015, 06:39 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 06:36 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 05:57 PM)Banjo Wrote:  You see evidence the earth is flat? Have you never flown?
Yes. When I look at the ground. It looks flat. That is evidence. It might be good or bad evidence depending on perspective.

And when standing on a hill?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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08-06-2015, 06:40 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 06:30 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 05:59 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Incorrect. There is independent reason (the theory of relativity) to believe in things like dark energy and if it were shown to be wrong tomorrow, it would be abandoned.

You don't need 100% verified evidence to believe something without taking it on faith.

By your logic, I take it on faith I'm alive and breathing and not in the matrix. And then at the same time, I take it on faith that Gravity is a valid scientific theory. And that I take it on faith that a God doesn't exist.

Using your definition of faith, there is no opinion hat exists without personal faith. And it's still synonymous with the word "belief."

When one word has the exact same definition and usage as another without adding anything, it's a pointless and meaningless term.
There are indeed good reasons why scientists believe in dark matter. I mention the track record of relativity. Gravity etc etc.

But can one ignore the fact that this is also a valid reason to question the validity of the theory? It's debatable. That is the beauty of science. I believe we are on the same page there.

Paradoxes in general challenge generally held assumptions. There is always a balance between incorporating a new idea to preserve a great hypothesis, and acknowledging the need for a radical shift.

In any case, there are scientists who think that declaring 85% of matter presently unobservable because that is how we reconcile relativity with observation is an unacceptable leap.

That is fine. Par for the course. But when one group of reasonable men chooses two diametrically opposed positions, the role of faith cannot be ignored.

Science has a great track record in the realm of epistemology. I believe it is our best bet. What distinguishes from other areas is not the presence of faith or lack thereof.

The evidence for Dark Matter is not dependent on Relativity AT ALL. The observed motion and configuration of visible matter implies there is something else providing a "force" on visible matter. It has nothing to do with relativity.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-06-2015, 06:51 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 06:34 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 06:30 PM)tomilay Wrote:  There are indeed good reasons why scientists believe in dark matter. I mention the track record of relativity. Gravity etc etc.

But can one ignore the fact that this is also a valid reason to question the validity of the theory? It's debatable. That is the beauty of science. I believe we are on the same page there.

Paradoxes in general challenge generally held assumptions. There is always a balance between incorporating a new idea to preserve a great hypothesis, and acknowledging the need for a radical shift.

In any case, there are scientists who think that declaring 85% of matter presently unobservable because that is how we reconcile relativity with observation is an unacceptable leap.

That is fine. Par for the course. But when one group of reasonable men chooses two diametrically opposed positions, the role of faith cannot be ignored.

Science has a great track record in the realm of epistemology. I believe it is our best bet. What distinguishes from other areas is not the presence of faith or lack thereof.

"What distinguishes from other areas is not the presence of faith or lack thereof."

What distinguishes science is its ability to make observations about reality without the need of faith.

In fact, faith in science would contradict the scientific method as well as the collective body of knowledge attained through it.

I think you're conflating the assumption that logic is axiomatic and that science uses logic, with science having faith or utilizing faith.
I agree about the scientific principle itself. A good scientist will do his best to be rigorous about that.

But you want to consider that the religious folks also often base their beliefs on observation.

For instance, when lighting happens, it must mean there is a god of lightning. That is more reasonable than believing in such a god when lightning itself has never been observed.

You will often find similar explanations of things based on hard observable facts. There is nothing wrong with that.

The problem arises when a religious person, once invested in his view, stays the course no matter what else happens to contradict it.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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08-06-2015, 06:53 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 06:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 06:30 PM)tomilay Wrote:  There are indeed good reasons why scientists believe in dark matter. I mention the track record of relativity. Gravity etc etc.

But can one ignore the fact that this is also a valid reason to question the validity of the theory? It's debatable. That is the beauty of science. I believe we are on the same page there.

Paradoxes in general challenge generally held assumptions. There is always a balance between incorporating a new idea to preserve a great hypothesis, and acknowledging the need for a radical shift.

In any case, there are scientists who think that declaring 85% of matter presently unobservable because that is how we reconcile relativity with observation is an unacceptable leap.

That is fine. Par for the course. But when one group of reasonable men chooses two diametrically opposed positions, the role of faith cannot be ignored.

Science has a great track record in the realm of epistemology. I believe it is our best bet. What distinguishes from other areas is not the presence of faith or lack thereof.

The evidence for Dark Matter is not dependent on Relativity AT ALL. The observed motion and configuration of visible matter implies there is something else providing a "force" on visible matter. It has nothing to do with relativity.
Forget about dark matter. It's a distraction. .

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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08-06-2015, 06:56 PM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 06:51 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 06:34 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "What distinguishes from other areas is not the presence of faith or lack thereof."

What distinguishes science is its ability to make observations about reality without the need of faith.

In fact, faith in science would contradict the scientific method as well as the collective body of knowledge attained through it.

I think you're conflating the assumption that logic is axiomatic and that science uses logic, with science having faith or utilizing faith.
I agree about the scientific principle itself. A good scientist will do his best to be rigorous about that.

But you want to consider that the religious folks also often base their beliefs on observation.

For instance, when lighting happens, it must mean there is a god of lightning. That is more reasonable than believing in such a god when lightning itself has never been observed.

You will often find similar explanations of things based on hard observable facts. There is nothing wrong with that.

The problem arises when a religious person, once invested in his view, stays the course no matter what else happens to contradict it.

"For instance, when lighting happens, it must mean there is a god of lightning. That is more reasonable than believing in such a god when lightning itself has never been observed."

No, not really. Both are based on ignorance and an observation.

"A good scientist will do his best to be rigorous about that."

Because science doesn't require faith the scientist has to be rigorous and test himself and his ideas. This is why scientists are trained professionals who are evaluated by other experts in their fields.

Here is where you are getting lost. Science isn't ONLY observation.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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08-06-2015, 06:57 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 06:37 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 06:36 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Yes. When I look at the ground. It looks flat. That is evidence. It might be good or bad evidence depending on perspective.

But this requires you to ignore science in order to claim your evidence is valid.

Now, if you want to time travel a few thousand years before Eratosthenes, your observation might be more debatable.
Not necessarily. It could just mean that I have missed contradicting evidence.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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