Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
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08-06-2015, 06:58 PM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
Scientific theories, for instance, aren't assumed on faith to be true.

Religious ideas based on observations by the religious, are based on faith.


As Stephen Jay Gould put it, science and religion are two non-overlapping magisteria.

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08-06-2015, 06:59 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 05:54 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 03:22 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That's right, you wouldn't equate them because one is a faith-based belief and one is an evidence-based belief. Even the person who is largely ignorant of gravity understands it well enough to know that there is observable evidence behind it.
I am trying to get away from drowning in semantics. One has more evidence. The other has less; maybe 0. When I look outside I see evidence that the earth is flat.

Neither has 100% evidence for whatever belief they have.

An example would be general relativity. An excellent theory.

When general relativity failed to correctly predict galactic rotation on the basis of what we can see. Scientists had a dilemma. Dump general relativity or assume there is something extra that preserves general relativity.

Rather than reconsider the theory, most scientists place their faith in general relativity. Because it has done such an amazing job at explaining and predicting things.

For a minority of scientists, there is no evidence for dark matter unless you assume general relativity is infallible.

Because they think the evidence for dark matter is just evidence for the limitations of general relativity.

For them, 85% of the matter being invisible doesn't sit too far from an invisible man in the sky.

The point I am making. There is a lot of faith based consensus even in the scientific realm. Especially where paradoxes are concerned.

After all, theories are nothing more than models of reality. They do not represent incontrovertible facts.

When a better explanation arises that resolves contemporary paradoxes, science will readily embrace it and move on. This is the difference.

Physicists are not loathe to abandon a theory because of faith, but because there is evidence that it is a good theory.

You can continue bleating about scientific "faith" but you don't seem to understand how science works. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-06-2015, 06:59 PM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 06:57 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 06:37 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  But this requires you to ignore science in order to claim your evidence is valid.

Now, if you want to time travel a few thousand years before Eratosthenes, your observation might be more debatable.
Not necessarily. It could just mean that I have missed contradicting evidence.

Because you have assumed your observation is valid.

Science doesn't assume it's observations are valid.

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08-06-2015, 07:01 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 06:59 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 06:57 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Not necessarily. It could just mean that I have missed contradicting evidence.

Because you have assumed your observation is valid.

Science doesn't assume it's observations are valid.

If I could just assume my observations are valid and call it science, I'd have finished my dissertation years ago.

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08-06-2015, 07:02 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 06:56 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 06:51 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I agree about the scientific principle itself. A good scientist will do his best to be rigorous about that.

But you want to consider that the religious folks also often base their beliefs on observation.

For instance, when lighting happens, it must mean there is a god of lightning. That is more reasonable than believing in such a god when lightning itself has never been observed.

You will often find similar explanations of things based on hard observable facts. There is nothing wrong with that.

The problem arises when a religious person, once invested in his view, stays the course no matter what else happens to contradict it.

"For instance, when lighting happens, it must mean there is a god of lightning. That is more reasonable than believing in such a god when lightning itself has never been observed."

No, not really. Both are based on ignorance and an observation.

"A good scientist will do his best to be rigorous about that."

Because science doesn't require faith the scientist has to be rigorous and test himself and his ideas. This is why scientists are trained professionals who are evaluated by other experts in their fields.

Here is where you are getting lost. Science isn't ONLY observation.
Ignorance is across the board. It's what happens to it when evidence emerges that contradicts the god theory that matters.

The emphasis is not just on observation as you say, but how that observation informs your conclusions.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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08-06-2015, 07:03 PM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 07:02 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 06:56 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "For instance, when lighting happens, it must mean there is a god of lightning. That is more reasonable than believing in such a god when lightning itself has never been observed."

No, not really. Both are based on ignorance and an observation.

"A good scientist will do his best to be rigorous about that."

Because science doesn't require faith the scientist has to be rigorous and test himself and his ideas. This is why scientists are trained professionals who are evaluated by other experts in their fields.

Here is where you are getting lost. Science isn't ONLY observation.
Ignorance is across the board. It's what happens to it when evidence emerges that contradicts the god theory that matters.

The emphasis is not just on observation as you say, but how that observation informs your conclusions.

How observations and evidence inform your conclusions.

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08-06-2015, 07:04 PM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
And how these observations and evidence logically connect to your conclusions.

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08-06-2015, 07:05 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 07:01 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 06:59 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Because you have assumed your observation is valid.

Science doesn't assume it's observations are valid.

If I could just assume my observations are valid and call it science, I'd have finished my dissertation years ago.
I think you subscribe to the idea of scientists as guys with lab coats, pipettes, biro pens and all. I can't oppose that.

But I cannot conflate the scientific method with a trained scientist. It is just a method of inquiry rather than some exclusive club.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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08-06-2015, 07:07 PM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 07:05 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 07:01 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  If I could just assume my observations are valid and call it science, I'd have finished my dissertation years ago.
I think you subscribe to the idea of scientists as guys with lab coats, pipettes, biro pens and all. I can't oppose that.

But I cannot conflate the scientific method with a trained scientist. It is just a method of inquiry rather than some exclusive club.

I don't wear a lab coat although I do sometimes require pipettes.

But you are conflating terms. All over the place.

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08-06-2015, 07:13 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 06:59 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 05:54 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I am trying to get away from drowning in semantics. One has more evidence. The other has less; maybe 0. When I look outside I see evidence that the earth is flat.

Neither has 100% evidence for whatever belief they have.

An example would be general relativity. An excellent theory.

When general relativity failed to correctly predict galactic rotation on the basis of what we can see. Scientists had a dilemma. Dump general relativity or assume there is something extra that preserves general relativity.

Rather than reconsider the theory, most scientists place their faith in general relativity. Because it has done such an amazing job at explaining and predicting things.

For a minority of scientists, there is no evidence for dark matter unless you assume general relativity is infallible.

Because they think the evidence for dark matter is just evidence for the limitations of general relativity.

For them, 85% of the matter being invisible doesn't sit too far from an invisible man in the sky.

The point I am making. There is a lot of faith based consensus even in the scientific realm. Especially where paradoxes are concerned.

After all, theories are nothing more than models of reality. They do not represent incontrovertible facts.

When a better explanation arises that resolves contemporary paradoxes, science will readily embrace it and move on. This is the difference.

Physicists are not loathe to abandon a theory because of faith, but because there is evidence that it is a good theory.

You can continue bleating about scientific "faith" but you don't seem to understand how science works. Drinking Beverage
Yes. That is why they have come up with dark matter. Because there is evidence that the theory gravity is good on a small scale. So they assume on faith(unless you have iron clad evidence for dark matter) it must work the same at large scales.

There are scientists that don't buy into that. Some think the theory needs serious tweaking. Others think it should be abandoned altogether.

I know I can continue bleating when I want. I thought it is an open secret. But thanks for sharing.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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