Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
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08-06-2015, 07:21 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 07:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 07:05 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I think you subscribe to the idea of scientists as guys with lab coats, pipettes, biro pens and all. I can't oppose that.

But I cannot conflate the scientific method with a trained scientist. It is just a method of inquiry rather than some exclusive club.

I don't wear a lab coat although I do sometimes require pipettes.

But you are conflating terms. All over the place.
What a scientist does, is not necessarily the scientific method, unless he is practicing it.

But that is besides the point. If absence of faith is a requirement in principle, it is an organic part of the practice of science.

But it is subject to more rigor and open to change when evidence demands it.

I don't honestly see how else it differs from religion. But I respect that there are different views on the matter.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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08-06-2015, 07:25 PM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 07:21 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 07:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I don't wear a lab coat although I do sometimes require pipettes.

But you are conflating terms. All over the place.
What a scientist does, is not necessarily the scientific method, unless he is practicing it.

But that is besides the point. If absence of faith is a requirement in principle, it is an organic part of the practice of science.

But it is subject to more rigor and open to change when evidence demands it.

I don't honestly see how else it differs from religion. But I respect that there are different views on the matter.

It differs from religion in that it uses evidence and logic to not only attempt to prove its conclusions, but to test so as to try and disprove its conclusions.

As you've already said, religions don't amend their views, that's because their views are based on faith.

Like I said, if I could just use faith as the assumption for my observations being valid, I'd have been done long ago with my research. But I'd not be doing actual science.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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08-06-2015, 07:27 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 07:13 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 06:59 PM)Chas Wrote:  Physicists are not loathe to abandon a theory because of faith, but because there is evidence that it is a good theory.

You can continue bleating about scientific "faith" but you don't seem to understand how science works. Drinking Beverage
Yes. That is why they have come up with dark matter. Because there is evidence that the theory gravity is good on a small scale. So they assume on faith(unless you have iron clad evidence for dark matter) it must work the same at large scales.

There are scientists that don't buy into that. Some think the theory needs serious tweaking. Others think it should be abandoned altogether.

I know I can continue bleating when I want. I thought it is an open secret. But thanks for sharing.

No, physicists do not "assume on faith" that it must work the same at large scales. There was no evidence that it didn't until anomalies in galactic rotation were detected.

Some scientists hypothesized different models for gravity, others hypothesized 'dark matter'.
None relied on faith. Faith is for bleating sheep.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-06-2015, 07:27 PM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
You still seem to be missing the fact that the way you sometimes use the word "faith" (like when you use it in the context of science), you really mean to say "believe." Faith is a meaningless term the way you use it for science.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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08-06-2015, 07:38 PM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
A buddy of mine once asked me if I believed science would ever have all the answers to the universe. I rather naively replied "yes" and he pointed out that in this instance, I had faith in science's ability as a collective concept for discerning truth about reality.

Science itself, and any scientist worth their weight in halite, would recognize that science and scientists doesn't assume that science can or will attain all answers to the universe. As that is markedly unscientific. But the individual human's belief is not the same as saying that science has faith incorporated into it or that scientists do science based on faith.

I should hope it goes without saying I've since amended my views on whether science could ever attain all knowledge in the universe or even the capacity to attain it.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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08-06-2015, 07:44 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 07:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 07:13 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Yes. That is why they have come up with dark matter. Because there is evidence that the theory gravity is good on a small scale. So they assume on faith(unless you have iron clad evidence for dark matter) it must work the same at large scales.

There are scientists that don't buy into that. Some think the theory needs serious tweaking. Others think it should be abandoned altogether.

I know I can continue bleating when I want. I thought it is an open secret. But thanks for sharing.

No, physicists do not "assume on faith" that it must work the same at large scales. There was no evidence that it didn't until anomalies in galactic rotation were detected.

Some scientists hypothesized different models for gravity, others hypothesized 'dark matter'.
None relied on faith. Faith is for bleating sheep.
I take it you do stuff with sheep. I had no idea. Thanks for sharing.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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08-06-2015, 07:47 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 07:44 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 07:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, physicists do not "assume on faith" that it must work the same at large scales. There was no evidence that it didn't until anomalies in galactic rotation were detected.

Some scientists hypothesized different models for gravity, others hypothesized 'dark matter'.
None relied on faith. Faith is for bleating sheep.
I take it you do stuff with sheep. I had no idea. Thanks for sharing.

You'll have to try a lot harder than that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-06-2015, 07:51 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 07:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 07:21 PM)tomilay Wrote:  What a scientist does, is not necessarily the scientific method, unless he is practicing it.

But that is besides the point. If absence of faith is a requirement in principle, it is an organic part of the practice of science.

But it is subject to more rigor and open to change when evidence demands it.

I don't honestly see how else it differs from religion. But I respect that there are different views on the matter.

It differs from religion in that it uses evidence and logic to not only attempt to prove its conclusions, but to test so as to try and disprove its conclusions.

As you've already said, religions don't amend their views, that's because their views are based on faith.

Like I said, if I could just use faith as the assumption for my observations being valid, I'd have been done long ago with my research. But I'd not be doing actual science.
TheBeardedDude,

I think I have reached the limit of my contribution on this particular topic. I appreciate we have a different understanding of faith. Its place if any in science.

But I believe we share the same views on the importance of science in general.

Was it a helpful exchange? It depends. I think it establishes our viewpoints. I think that's healthy.

I respect your approach and look forward to more fruitful exchanges.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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08-06-2015, 07:52 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 07:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 07:44 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I take it you do stuff with sheep. I had no idea. Thanks for sharing.

You'll have to try a lot harder than that.
Bwahaha

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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08-06-2015, 07:52 PM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 07:51 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 07:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It differs from religion in that it uses evidence and logic to not only attempt to prove its conclusions, but to test so as to try and disprove its conclusions.

As you've already said, religions don't amend their views, that's because their views are based on faith.

Like I said, if I could just use faith as the assumption for my observations being valid, I'd have been done long ago with my research. But I'd not be doing actual science.
TheBeardedDude,

I think I have reached the limit of my contribution on this particular topic. I appreciate we have a different understanding of faith. Its place if any in science.

But I believe we share the same views on the importance of science in general.

Was it a helpful exchange? It depends. I think it establishes our viewpoints. I think that's healthy.

I respect your approach and look forward to more fruitful exchanges.

I don't know if the exchange was helpful or not. It would be if you don't use faith to describe science in the future.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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