Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
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08-06-2015, 08:34 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 06:51 PM)tomilay Wrote:  But you want to consider that the religious folks also often base their beliefs on observation.

No. Mainline theology states that faith is a gift of their god. It's never based on "observation". It's the suspension of reason.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-06-2015, 08:35 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 06:53 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 06:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The evidence for Dark Matter is not dependent on Relativity AT ALL. The observed motion and configuration of visible matter implies there is something else providing a "force" on visible matter. It has nothing to do with relativity.
Forget about dark matter. It's a distraction. .

Apparently it wasn't to you until your error was pointed out.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-06-2015, 08:44 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 08:35 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 06:53 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Forget about dark matter. It's a distraction. .

Apparently it wasn't to you until your error was pointed out.
Yes.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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08-06-2015, 08:46 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-06-2015, 09:08 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 08:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Facepalm

I have faith that he'll figure it out someday.
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09-06-2015, 12:31 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(08-06-2015 09:08 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 08:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Facepalm

I have faith that he'll figure it out someday.
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I don't. Confused

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09-06-2015, 12:40 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(09-06-2015 12:31 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 09:08 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I have faith that he'll figure it out someday.
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I don't. Confused

O ye of little faith. Weeping

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-06-2015, 01:23 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
Theists and atheists alike require faith... As long as I redefine "faith"...

... it's always the same bullshit. Honestly, people have a hard enough time communicating efficiently as it is, with the limitations of language, navigating fields of written sarcasm... Ugghhh, how about we just STOP redefining words.
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09-06-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
Faith is one of those words with two meanings.

For example.

Cock: A male sexual organ AND/OR A Male Chicken

Bark: An external protection of a tree AND/OR A sharp explosive cry

Faith: Complete Trust AND/OR Basing beliefs on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

I can have faith in my wife. As in "I can have complete trust in my wife." But I would not be putting spiritual apprehensions to her.

I think this is where tomilay is getting confused.

Now I know i'm getting to this late. and only glanced over some of the conversation.

Atheism is a response to one question. Do you believe in god? It has no dogma's, no demands, no assertions. NOW a religion has these things. So yes Buddhism can be counted as a Atheistic Religion simply for the fact it doesn't have any deity it pertains to. But they do have assertions, dogma's and demands. Such as Karma, Reincarnation, and an achievement of Nirvana.

Now I've meet Atheists that believe in psychics, I've meet atheist that believe in ghosts, I've even meet Atheist that believe the Chargers are a good team. They can believe in all these things and still be considered an Atheist.

Now why doesn't Science fall into Religious Quilifactions. Science is a method.

The steps of the scientific method go something like this:

1. Make an observation or observations.
2. Ask questions about the observations and gather information.
3. Form a hypothesis — a tentative description of what’s been observed, and make predictions based on that hypothesis.
4. Test the hypothesis and predictions in an experiment that can be reproduced.
5. Analyze the data and draw conclusions; accept or reject the hypothesis or modify the hypothesis if necessary.
6. Reproduce the experiment until there are no discrepancies between observations and theory.


Science as a method doesn't have any dogma. It's the tool of finding a Truth. Not a unmoving stance. And can be used to break down things that are thought as "Truth" as well. In science most things arise to the stance of a Theory. And held long enough, test constantly, and applied to other Science's, we can only accept these things as facts.
Example : Theory of Gravity, Theory of Evolution and The Theory of General Relativity
However, if at some point it can not stand up to these rigorous test, and something that can be even more provable comes along then that "Truth" can be brushed aside.

Science asserts things that can be proven. If a person clams to be able to turn invisible, we can us the scientific method to see if it's true. If he can't then it can not be asserted as capable. Maybe something else can, just not him.

Science demands.


1. The hypothesis must be testable and falsifiable.
2. Research must involve deductive reasoning and inductive reasoning. Deductive reasoning is the process of using true premises to reach a logical true conclusion while inductive reasoning takes the opposite approach.
3. An experiment should include a dependent variable (which does not change) and an independent variable (which does change).
4. An experiment should include an experimental group and a control group. The control group is what the experimental group is compared against.

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09-06-2015, 04:50 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(09-06-2015 04:05 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Faith is one of those words with two meanings.

For example.

Cock: A male sexual organ AND/OR A Male Chicken

Bark: An external protection of a tree AND/OR A sharp explosive cry

Faith: Complete Trust AND/OR Basing beliefs on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

I can have faith in my wife. As in "I can have complete trust in my wife." But I would not be putting spiritual apprehensions to her.

I think this is where tomilay is getting confused.

Now I know i'm getting to this late. and only glanced over some of the conversation.

Atheism is a response to one question. Do you believe in god? It has no dogma's, no demands, no assertions. NOW a religion has these things. So yes Buddhism can be counted as a Atheistic Religion simply for the fact it doesn't have any deity it pertains to. But they do have assertions, dogma's and demands. Such as Karma, Reincarnation, and an achievement of Nirvana.

Now I've meet Atheists that believe in psychics, I've meet atheist that believe in ghosts, I've even meet Atheist that believe the Chargers are a good team. They can believe in all these things and still be considered an Atheist.

Now why doesn't Science fall into Religious Quilifactions. Science is a method.

The steps of the scientific method go something like this:

1. Make an observation or observations.
2. Ask questions about the observations and gather information.
3. Form a hypothesis — a tentative description of what’s been observed, and make predictions based on that hypothesis.
4. Test the hypothesis and predictions in an experiment that can be reproduced.
5. Analyze the data and draw conclusions; accept or reject the hypothesis or modify the hypothesis if necessary.
6. Reproduce the experiment until there are no discrepancies between observations and theory.


Science as a method doesn't have any dogma. It's the tool of finding a Truth. Not a unmoving stance. And can be used to break down things that are thought as "Truth" as well. In science most things arise to the stance of a Theory. And held long enough, test constantly, and applied to other Science's, we can only accept these things as facts.
Example : Theory of Gravity, Theory of Evolution and The Theory of General Relativity
However, if at some point it can not stand up to these rigorous test, and something that can be even more provable comes along then that "Truth" can be brushed aside.

Science asserts things that can be proven. If a person clams to be able to turn invisible, we can us the scientific method to see if it's true. If he can't then it can not be asserted as capable. Maybe something else can, just not him.

Science demands.


1. The hypothesis must be testable and falsifiable.
2. Research must involve deductive reasoning and inductive reasoning. Deductive reasoning is the process of using true premises to reach a logical true conclusion while inductive reasoning takes the opposite approach.
3. An experiment should include a dependent variable (which does not change) and an independent variable (which does change).
4. An experiment should include an experimental group and a control group. The control group is what the experimental group is compared against.
I had vowed to move on from this discussion. But this is a coherent response. Devoid of knee-jerk puerile responses that betray underlying inadequacies, real or imagined.

The kind that one can only arrive at after trying to understand viewpoint. Worthy of being in a forum with a name like theinsecurethinkingatheist.

The point quoted below is critical in understanding my view on what I consider the only fundamental difference between science and religion.

While I know most extant religion does not even approach this level of rigor, it hypothetically could and happily live with reinforcing outcomes.

Religious adherents can and often have no problem with the scientific approach, to a proposition, until something like this happens.
Quote:However, if at some point it can not stand up to these rigorous test, and something that can be even more provable comes along then that "Truth" can be brushed aside.

Science asserts things that can be proven. If a person clams to be able to turn invisible, we can us the scientific method to see if it's true. If he can't then it can not be asserted as capable. Maybe something else can, just not him.
The reason I call the scientific views as faith, as I defined somewhere earlier, is also captured in this same quote. Trust is placed in a model, which while rigorous, is only a "fact" because something better hasn't come along. It just so happens to be faith that can be impacted by empirical evidence. Religion remains impervious.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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