Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
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10-06-2015, 11:37 AM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 11:34 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 10:58 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Also, look at the examples given for each definition you want to use. The context of the sentence makes it clear how it is being used. But when you use it (and how you have used it) to describe science it implies a usage similar to how one would use it for describing religion. But you've already admitted that you mean two different things when using the word "faith" for science vs religion. Does it not make more sense to not use the same term in the same way to mean two different things?

When you conflate these terms and utilize them in a similar way to describe science as you would religion (when in one case you mean faith as an evidence-based belief and the other as a lack of evidenced based belief), you support the religious assertion of science being a religion. They quote mine people like you because you use religious terms to describe non-religious beliefs.
I used the word faith. And gave the definition. The definition certainly gives context to how those elements are used. I insist on using it broadly, and I explain it below.

Already we agree that at least 2 elements of the definition can be found in science and religion.

In other words, it is entirely possible to have a religion that only incorporates those aspects you find in science.

As long as that remains the case, it is identical to science. It morphs into a religion when that faith(confidence) remains unshakeable even as new information invalidates it.

To understand my argument, consider a hypothetical "religion' that is fully in agreement with science at a given point in time.

Today they believe the universe is expanding and rely on abundant evidence for that.

Tomorrow, if it is discovered that in fact the universe is not expanding. The religious will persist in that belief. While the scientist will drop it.

That is why I say science and religion can potentially be indistinguishable but for what they do with new contradictory information.

No, we don't agree on the utilization of the two definitions you want to use for science. I outright reject them as meaningful.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-06-2015, 11:38 AM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 11:34 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 10:58 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Also, look at the examples given for each definition you want to use. The context of the sentence makes it clear how it is being used. But when you use it (and how you have used it) to describe science it implies a usage similar to how one would use it for describing religion. But you've already admitted that you mean two different things when using the word "faith" for science vs religion. Does it not make more sense to not use the same term in the same way to mean two different things?

When you conflate these terms and utilize them in a similar way to describe science as you would religion (when in one case you mean faith as an evidence-based belief and the other as a lack of evidenced based belief), you support the religious assertion of science being a religion. They quote mine people like you because you use religious terms to describe non-religious beliefs.
I used the word faith. And gave the definition. The definition certainly gives context to how those elements are used. I insist on using it broadly, and I explain it below.

Already we agree that at least 2 elements of the definition can be found in science and religion.

In other words, it is entirely possible to have a religion that only incorporates those aspects you find in science.

As long as that remains the case, it is identical to science. It morphs into a religion when that faith(confidence) remains unshakeable even as new information invalidates it.

To understand my argument, consider a hypothetical "religion' that is fully in agreement with science at a given point in time.

Today they believe the universe is expanding and rely on abundant evidence for that.

Tomorrow, if it is discovered that in fact the universe is not expanding. The religious will persist in that belief. While the scientist will drop it.

That is why I say science and religion can potentially be indistinguishable but for what they do with new contradictory information.

And no, you're example still fails. Either the religion believes it based on the merit of the evidence, or they believe it on faith.

The scientist doesn't believe it on faith before or after it is shown to be incorrect.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-06-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 11:15 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 11:09 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  See but the the problem still is your using multiple definitions of the word and melding into one. Using it as check list, more then a description of it multiple uses.

If a person has Faith that their team will win this year. Would you call a sports team a religion? If a person had faith that John Snow wasn't going to die this season. Would you call Game of Thrones a religion?

And if you do would you feel it acceptable if these groups got a tax ride off from the government? Because i'm sure many colleges, museums, scientific labs, and historians would LOVE for your definition to be applied to them.

I'll build off of this and give two examples that you might use.

1) Christians have faith in God.

2) Scientists have faith in science.

You've already said that you don't mean faith in the same way for sentence 1 as you do sentence 2. So why would you use the same word when no one will understand what you mean by "faith" unless you go through a lengthy explanation on your use of the term in each case?

Why not simply use a more appropriate term for sentence 2, like "understand science" or "trust science as a body of knowledge and the scientific method as a means of acquiring that knowledge."
I use the same word for both meanings because that is exactly what the religious fellow will do when putting his point across. And he would be right in my opinion.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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10-06-2015, 11:41 AM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
For instance, are you going to provide your specific definition for faith each time you use it? If so, you're going through more effort than is needed to effectively communicate and people are going to stop listening.

If not, then you're going to have this same semantics argument every time you use faith to describe science. Meaning that you've once again entered into a longer discussion to explain what you actually meant where if you'd use a more appropriate term, you'd be understood from the beginning.

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10-06-2015, 11:42 AM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 11:40 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 11:15 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I'll build off of this and give two examples that you might use.

1) Christians have faith in God.

2) Scientists have faith in science.

You've already said that you don't mean faith in the same way for sentence 1 as you do sentence 2. So why would you use the same word when no one will understand what you mean by "faith" unless you go through a lengthy explanation on your use of the term in each case?

Why not simply use a more appropriate term for sentence 2, like "understand science" or "trust science as a body of knowledge and the scientific method as a means of acquiring that knowledge."
I use the same word for both meanings because that is exactly what the religious fellow will do when putting his point across. And he would be right in my opinion.

If you believe science has faith incorporated into it, then you must believe that science is effectively a religion. If so, you've already voided your usefulness in this discussion.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-06-2015, 11:49 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 11:42 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 11:40 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I use the same word for both meanings because that is exactly what the religious fellow will do when putting his point across. And he would be right in my opinion.

If you believe science has faith incorporated into it, then you must believe that science is effectively a religion. If so, you've already voided your usefulness in this discussion.
I disagree.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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10-06-2015, 11:49 AM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 11:49 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 11:42 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  If you believe science has faith incorporated into it, then you must believe that science is effectively a religion. If so, you've already voided your usefulness in this discussion.
I disagree.

With what?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-06-2015, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2015 11:53 AM by Mr. Boston.)
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
Uh huh. And "off" is a TV channel, and "barefoot" is a shoe style, and "abstinence" is a sex position, and "empty glass" is an alcoholic beverage, and "silence" is a genre of music, etc.
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10-06-2015, 11:50 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 11:41 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  For instance, are you going to provide your specific definition for faith each time you use it? If so, you're going through more effort than is needed to effectively communicate and people are going to stop listening.

If not, then you're going to have this same semantics argument every time you use faith to describe science. Meaning that you've once again entered into a longer discussion to explain what you actually meant where if you'd use a more appropriate term, you'd be understood from the beginning.
But that only applies to discussions with close minded atheists. On the other it works just fine in discussions with religious adherents.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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10-06-2015, 11:51 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 11:49 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 11:49 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I disagree.

With what?
With your assertion.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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