Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
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10-06-2015, 11:53 AM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 11:51 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 11:49 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  With what?
With your assertion.

Which one? Your usefulness or that your use of the word faith to describe science implies it must be a religion?

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10-06-2015, 11:53 AM
Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 11:50 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 11:41 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  For instance, are you going to provide your specific definition for faith each time you use it? If so, you're going through more effort than is needed to effectively communicate and people are going to stop listening.

If not, then you're going to have this same semantics argument every time you use faith to describe science. Meaning that you've once again entered into a longer discussion to explain what you actually meant where if you'd use a more appropriate term, you'd be understood from the beginning.
But that only applies to discussions with close minded atheists. On the other it works just fine in discussions with religious adherents.

Go fuck yourself troll. I'm tired of your dip-shittery

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10-06-2015, 11:55 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 11:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 11:50 AM)tomilay Wrote:  But that only applies to discussions with close minded atheists. On the other it works just fine in discussions with religious adherents.

Go fuck yourself troll. I'm tired of your dip-shittery
You are the troll. I am fine with disagreement. This is not the Vatican.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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10-06-2015, 12:08 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
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10-06-2015, 12:17 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 11:34 AM)tomilay Wrote:  That is why I say science and religion can potentially be indistinguishable but for what they do with new contradictory information.

While I totally disagree with the interpretations of both faith and belief in this thread, I am going to overlook that for the moment. Just keep in mind that this is the case and any conversation is entirely hypothetical for that reason.

So, you would pick an intransigent position that refuses to learn and adapt?

That is how you describe religion, and I do agree with that part..... some religions are even more medieval than others... but they all tend to be intransigent and adverse to learning.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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10-06-2015, 12:23 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 11:09 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 10:20 AM)tomilay Wrote:  The link I give has several definitions.

Most religions will have all defintions incorporated. Science will have 1, 4 and 7.

Therefore we can work with where they intersect i.e. 1, 4 and 7. That would be fair.

Anything else is cherry picking.

See but the the problem still is your using multiple definitions of the word and melding into one. Using it as check list, more then a description of it multiple uses.

If a person has Faith that their team will win this year. Would you call a sports team a religion? If a person had faith that John Snow wasn't going to die this season. Would you call Game of Thrones a religion?

And if you do would you feel it acceptable if these groups got a tax ride off from the government? Because i'm sure many colleges, museums, scientific labs, and historians would LOVE for your definition to be applied to them.
I wouldn't call them religion for purposes of taxation.

Does that mean they don't share common attributes with religions? I think that is why we are having this discussion.

I would say they incorporate religious elements. If I cross my fingers and believe the Cubs will win the world series this year, I would not fault if you said I exhibit religious behavior.

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10-06-2015, 12:26 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
TheBeardedDude is right thou tomilay. (Not so much with the Troll thing. I believe you believe this is true.)

You confusing faith with understanding. When it comes to scientific study one doesn't simple believe that Gravity exists. We can apply this theory to many aspects of different study's. We see it has positive results and applied effects. A religion requires a supernatural clam and makes demands the you must adhere to rules to satisfy this supernatural clam. And even if by some astonishing miracle that science was a religion. That still wouldn't make Atheism a religion. The end all be all is your asserting a clam that doesn't hold up. By you definition of a Religion anything can be included.

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10-06-2015, 12:30 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 12:17 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 11:34 AM)tomilay Wrote:  That is why I say science and religion can potentially be indistinguishable but for what they do with new contradictory information.

While I totally disagree with the interpretations of both faith and belief in this thread, I am going to overlook that for the moment. Just keep in mind that this is the case and any conversation is entirely hypothetical for that reason.

So, you would pick an intransigent position that refuses to learn and adapt?

That is how you describe religion, and I do agree with that part..... some religions are even more medieval than others... but they all tend to be intransigent and adverse to learning.
Yes. Intrasigence is the essence of religions. Not faith(and all it encapsulates). I would say you understand my view, if that is what you mean.

Would I pick that over learning? If I understand you correctly. The answer is no.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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10-06-2015, 12:37 PM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2015 01:06 PM by unfogged.)
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 11:40 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I use the same word for both meanings because that is exactly what the religious fellow will do when putting his point across. And he would be right in my opinion.

That is the problem. The religious fellow is equivocating on meanings of the word faith to try to either elevate religious faith or denigrate science and put them on the same level. He's not right in doing that and agreeing to that means you've lost the argument right from the start.

(10-06-2015 11:50 AM)tomilay Wrote:  But that only applies to discussions with close minded atheists. On the other it works just fine in discussions with religious adherents.

Certainly it works. When you agree to their definitions you validate their beliefs. It isn't being close-minded to evaluate an approach to discussions with theists and reject it as being counterproductive.

(10-06-2015 12:23 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Does that mean they don't share common attributes with religions?

You can find similarities between almost any two otherwise disparate things. The differences are what are important and your use of faith for trust in scientific findings glosses over the primary distinction that between it and religion.

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10-06-2015, 01:05 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(10-06-2015 12:26 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  TheBeardedDude is right thou tomilay. (Not so much with the Troll thing. I believe you believe this is true.)

You confusing faith with understanding. When it comes to scientific study one doesn't simple believe that Gravity exists. We can apply this theory to many aspects of different study's. We see it has positive results and applied effects. A religion requires a supernatural clam and makes demands the you must adhere to rules to satisfy this supernatural clam. And even if by some astonishing miracle that science was a religion. That still wouldn't make Atheism a religion. The end all be all is your asserting a clam that doesn't hold up. By you definition of a Religion anything can be included.
I can't say he is right or wrong. Having completely missed his point. Other than he wants me to fuck myself . Maybe the only point he had all along. That is fine too.

I am familiar with what science entails. The continuous testing of hypothesis, replications of outcomes and challenges. The whole kit and kaboodle. None of that is foreign to me.

Anything I say, I say it cognizant of what the scientific method is about. There should be no doubt about that. if there is lingering doubt, my priority wont be to correct it. It's a distraction.

Someone on another thread, I forget which, suggested that religion was just an attempt at understanding the world, using the only tools people then knew about.

They came up with explanations which became ingrained as part of social memory outliving their validity.

That makes sense. It is also why it is not a surprise to me that there would be attributes shared between science and religion.

The faith in science as per definition is the same as confidence. In the method itself. In the outcomes it produces.

I think there is an ingrained urge to caricature religion in order to better pillage it. In the process we attach negative connotations to things we feel are its defining attributes.

I don't think that is necessary or even useful.

I think that definition clarifies the relationship between religion and science.

The scientific method, crystallizes the distinguishing features.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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