Atheists can only criticize the Old Testament but not the New
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13-06-2013, 02:53 PM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2013 02:56 PM by Revenant77x.)
RE: Atheists can only criticize the Old Testament but not the New
(13-06-2013 02:28 PM)JAH Wrote:  evenheathen, if I may add something.

By logical extension of your and Starcrash's argument if I was to say here "the bible is full of contradictions" I would be required to link to various web sites that present those contradictions or I could be accused of making an incomplete argument.

On a theist forum I would suggest that reference would be required. Even on this forum if the comment was regarding a specific point I would think I should be required to provide reference. On this forum I would however expect the bulk of the readers to understand and agree with the meaning of that statement and it would not demand reference.

Like I said some posts ago I find the argument you and Starcrash are making somewhat pedantic.

No it is not pedantic, it is wrong. Just because an argument can be a fallacy does not make it always a fallacy. The argument from authority for example is not always a fallacy but it can be one. In this instance starcrash is claiming that the use of the fact that Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud is an ad hominem fallacy and it is instead being used to show the character of the man. As I said earlier personal testimony is not equal and the person making the testimony matters a great deal as to how we weight their testimony. Had Joseph Smith not been illiterate, a convicted Conman, and an all around disreputable figure his testimony would be worth more than the nothing it currently is. Now saying that because he was convicted of fraud means everything he says is a lie is a fallacy, however requiring more than just his word because of his past is not.

As a side note can we please stop the personal attacks? It really adds nothing to the conversation and is just childish. Accusing someone of being a mormon or a satan-worshiper does not add to your point it just makes you look bad. I can see Starcrash's point I just think in this instance he is wrong and have tried to show why no need to disparage him any further than pointing out his error and awaiting his response.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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13-06-2013, 02:58 PM
RE: Atheists can only criticize the Old Testament but not the New
(13-06-2013 02:28 PM)JAH Wrote:  evenheathen, if I may add something.

By logical extension of your and Starcrash's argument if I was to say here "the bible is full of contradictions" I would be required to link to various web sites that present those contradictions or I could be accused of making an incomplete argument.

On a theist forum I would suggest that reference would be required. Even on this forum if the comment was regarding a specific point I would think I should be required to provide reference. On this forum I would however expect the bulk of the readers to understand and agree with the meaning of that statement and it would not demand reference.

Like I said some posts ago I find the argument you and Starcrash are making somewhat pedantic.

Pedantic? Sure it is. I didn't mean to come here and get into a pissing match with you two. I don't suspect starcrash did either. He simply made a point, pedantic or not, which was technically correct. Then you two jumped all over him. I was just trying to lend some support. This is obviously is not getting anywhere so we can stop derailing the thread.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Emberto Eco
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13-06-2013, 03:01 PM
Re: RE: Atheists can only criticize the Old Testament but not the New
(13-06-2013 01:58 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  That's the frustrating thing about fallacies, those who make them generally don't realize it. The argument starcrash and now myself are making has nothing to do with Smith. The mistake in your logic has nothing to do with Smith. This has already been pointed out and has been ignored.

Isn't there a fallacy on diverting away from a topic in order to make it irrelevant? I commited no fallacy in regards to Smith as was pointted out in this context. All else is what is truly irrelevant. A diversion only. An arrogant one at that.

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13-06-2013, 03:10 PM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2013 03:28 PM by Stephen Charchuk.)
Re: RE: Atheists can only criticize the Old Testament but not the New
(13-06-2013 02:53 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Had Joseph Smith not been illiterate, a convicted Conman, and an all around disreputable figure his testimony would be worth more than the nothing it currently is. Now saying that because he was convicted of fraud means everything he says is a lie is a fallacy, however requiring more than just his word because of his past is not.

In this case Oaccum's Razor is apt.

Quote:As a side note can we please stop the personal attacks? It really adds nothing to the conversation and is just childish. Accusing someone of being a mormon or a satan-worshiper does not add to your point it just makes you look bad. I can see Starcrash's point I just think in this instance he is wrong and have tried to show why no need to disparage him any further than pointing out his error and awaiting his response.

And being accused of something one is not doing also doesn't add anything as well. As I had said, I make no apologies for speaking honestly.

This topic is a travesty and is now over. Score one the otherside. I will now unsubscribe to this threat. You win, Star, happy? Afterall logic is everything and evidence is nothing.

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13-06-2013, 03:25 PM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2013 03:37 PM by JAH.)
RE: Atheists can only criticize the Old Testament but not the New
Revenant77x, I will agree with you that the personal attacks should end, neither amusing nor useful.

I used the term pedantic because I am not that familiar with some of the "philosophical" comments being made. If you would notice I tried to make simple arguments because I am both a simple (not intellectually so, but in the sense that there is much I do not understand well) person and am not intimate with some of the terms and arguments made.

I found the careful examination of word, meaning and how things are presented a little bit overbearing and unnecessary. It was not an argument of fact but how those facts were presented.

Basically I found some of the discussion lacking sense. I have not the knowledge to call certain points wrong.

Although I have found this interesting I think I can agree with others that it is time to end it. With the caveat that Starcrash should be allowed a final comment if he would like.

A final edit. evenheathen, I did not think I was in a pissing contest with anyone. I thought I was trying to understand others points. I never meant any disrespect to anyone. Beside at my age I would lose any pissing contest, it would be too little to register in most contests.
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13-06-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: Atheists can only criticize the Old Testament but not the New
As I said from the get go, from my point of view what starcrash said was sound. I'll admit that I could be wrong, but I'll stand by it anyway. I didn't mean to come here for an argument. I'm sleep deprived and a bit cranky, and I don't like squabbling with people I respect so I'm going to drop it here.

Word to your mother.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Emberto Eco
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13-06-2013, 03:40 PM
RE: Atheists can only criticize the Old Testament but not the New
(13-06-2013 03:25 PM)JAH Wrote:  Revenant77x, I will agree with you that the personal attacks should end, neither amusing nor useful.

I used the term pedantic because I am not that familiar with some of the "philosophical" comments being made. If you would notice I tried to make simple arguments because I am both a simple (not intellectually so, but in the sense that there is much I do not understand well) person and am not intimate with some of the terms and arguments made.

I found the careful examination of word, meaning and how things are presented a little bit overbearing and unnecessary. It was not an argument of fact but how those facts were presented.

Basically I found some of the discussion lacking sense. I have not the knowledge to call certain points wrong.

Although I have found this interesting I think I can agree with others that it is time to end it. With the caveat that Starcrash should be allowed a final comment if he would like.

This was a meta argument but one that can be valuable in the future. Anytime you can strengthen your points by removing logical fallacies it is a good thing and had Starcrash been correct I would have had to alter my argument about the foundation of the Mormon cult in the future. The exact usage of certain arguments is very critical in a debate simply because if your argument is based on a logical fallacy then your opponent can simply seize on that and ignore your larger points.

All that being said I think we have finished turning this horse into glue Smile Star if you want the last word feel free.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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13-06-2013, 05:01 PM
RE: Atheists can only criticize the Old Testament but not the New
Okay, I just have to flog the glue. Tongue

Not that it should make much difference, but after mulling it over I had a thought. Seems to me in hindsight that Charchuk was looking at the argument solely from a modern viewpoint, whereas I was arguing from the point of someone hearing the claims of Smith for the first time from Smith himself.

Looking back at the whole story today, of course it is absurd to believe him and obvious what a lying sac of troll shit he was. The ad hominem works in the modern argument because all of the facts are known. However, using the ad hominem as a sweeping dismissal of his claims at the time he made them would seem, to me, to be logically unsound without first investigating further into their veracity.

Don't know if that clarifies my position any better, I still could be wrong. But that's my two. It's easier to hold a clear train of thought for a post when you're not trying to do it at work on a mobile getting interrupted five times a post. Blush

Jah, no disrespect taken man. Thumbsup

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Emberto Eco
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15-06-2013, 01:18 PM
Re: Atheists can only criticize the Old Testament but not the New
It didn't help with Star being so anal. (Quick visit.)

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