Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
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26-03-2012, 09:39 AM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2012 05:16 PM by ghostexorcist.)
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
(26-03-2012 09:08 AM)Denicio Wrote:  
(26-03-2012 08:54 AM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  I usually bring up the following:

1) Examples of morality in the animal kingdom.
Can you share a few of these?

Body posturing among social animals is an example of animal morality. If a young male disrespects the alpha by not adopting submissive body postures, or tries to mount one of his special lady friends, he is going to get his ass beat, ostracized, or, worse, killed. So, for example, a wolf must follow the instinctual social rules to survive and be a contributing member of the pack society. This is just like a human who does not conform to societal laws can get ostracized by a group, arrested, or even euthanized.

Another example I read about was that male chimpanzees will actually go on war parties into enemy territory in order to expand their own. They are known to bring weapons like sticks with them. Some female Chimpanzees are so worried that they will try to force individuals from leaving, even going so far as to pry the weapon from their hands. If peace is reached between two warring parties, they seal their treaty with a kiss.

Regarding other primates, the funniest example of morality that I have ever read about involved a lab experiment where monkeys were taught to hand in tokens to receive a treat of either grapes or cucumbers. They would get grapes, a tastier treat, if they handed in even more tokens than one would get for cucumbers. The researchers then started to give the monkeys who handed in more tokens cucumber just to see what they would do. Like any intelligent animal with a brain, the monkeys realized that they were getting screwed over. When the researchers offered them cucumber for their efforts, the monkeys either refused to take it, or, get this, they THREW IT AT THE RESEARCHER! HA! I could imagine one of those little guys thinking: “You son of a bitch!”

Altruism is another form of morality. Like, for example, a prairie dog chirping to warn others that predators are nearby. Granted, this serves the purpose of ensuring the survival of his family’s genes (since he is most likely related to those in his group), but this is no different than a human saving another human. This need to ensure the survival of our genes most likely explains why a man would save a total stranger. The human population has greatly expanded since the earliest days of the fully formed human some 150,000-200,000 years ago. We try to save people because our genes are still telling us to save our relatives.
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26-03-2012, 10:08 AM (This post was last modified: 26-03-2012 10:21 AM by satan69.)
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
The biggest mistake everyone hear talks about is that morality is based on god or no morality is based on no god or god. your all wrong. All humans would kill and commit more crimes if there was no jail time to fear. JAIL is what keeps us from murder. We are animals and animals kill. if they made murder legal tomorrow, the crime rate would explode. we would kill anyone that really pissed us off or ripped us off in a heartbeat. as long as we justify it. hell, even if we dont. christians and atheists are real naive on this issue. people arent moral because of god. they are moral because they dont want to go to jail. If murder were legal you would see school shootings EVERYDAY. You would see workplace shootings EVERYDAY. "what happened to tom. Oh tony killed him last night after he yelled at him by the computer station" "I heard john was killed at his house last night. Yea he called bob a fatso in pe class so he was wacked."


all of us have the capability to be a ted bundy. maybe not raping women but killing 20 or 30 people. the only reason we dont is we dont want to go to jail. I think society would be better if murder were legal. people would watch what they say and do. you would have less white collar crime for sure.


look at what happens to a 3rd world country when there is less policing of theirsociety. its a warzone.
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26-03-2012, 10:15 AM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
(26-03-2012 09:39 AM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  Body posturing among social animals is an example of animal morality.

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Alice is a moral being.

Blamed enough stuff on my Gwynnies today. Wink

One thing the IDiot got right is semiotics in the information age. One thing the moralists always get wrong; I would devour the world for my Gwynnies. "Greater good" is not a moral but rather ethical concern. Ethics - derivate of civilization, society, two - assholes. Angel

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26-03-2012, 11:33 AM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
(26-03-2012 09:12 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(26-03-2012 08:29 AM)Denicio Wrote:  What methods do you use to answer the sheeple?

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You'd respond the same way this guy does?

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26-03-2012, 11:51 AM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
(26-03-2012 11:33 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  You'd respond the same way this guy does?

The A-K is moral, the law ethical. I wuz watching my Gwynnies all morning. If I watch her long enough, sure enough I'll go full auto. Moderation in all things, but the well of morality springs from the zero-state of me and my Gwynnies. Them assholes got a point in theory; in practice they become pointless.

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26-03-2012, 11:56 AM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
I usually talk about morality in other species. Empathy and compassion serve as the basis for human morality. If a monkey would rather starve than obtain food at the price of pain to another individual then humans have no monopoly on morality.

Save a life. Adopt a greyhound.

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26-03-2012, 12:25 PM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
(26-03-2012 08:29 AM)Denicio Wrote:  Dear Former Religious Atheists,

Have you ever been hit with this ‘comeback’ when speaking
with the saved?


“Silly Atheist, the REASON you have morals, ethics and any
understanding between right and wrong is because YOU were raised that way in
the church early in life so it was programmed into you by God and his teachers. Also you parents
were Christians and their parents before them. You neighborhood and region was
god fearing so you were immersed in it, you could not escape it, so WITHOUT god
you’d be a (insert extreme depraved example here)”


It’s not that often, but when I get into what I think is a
fair debate (someone who genuinely wants to discuss this stuff…mistake number
one) and they run out of ‘ideas’ they’ll resort to this.


I am normally so astounded by the claim that it generally
leaves me somewhat speechless (hard to imagine). The stupidity of the argument
just floors me.


What I have began doing is quit making statements but start
asking questions (like I do here) about morality and where morality comes from.
Drawing comparisons to human morality and that of the OT god’s morality. They
generally create oddball circular arguments, like our beloved KC does, but it
almost always ends with them getting gruff, and hatefully saying something like
“You’ll see when you are roasting in hell”, which is when you KNOW the argument
is over.


Do you guys ever run into this line of reasoning about
morals and their origins?

What methods do you use to answer the sheeple?

Denicio


two possible responses to that :

1. Which god(s) are you talking about ? (because all the different gods have different rules). Some god's are REALLY nutty. Some expect the sacrifice of children, bloody hearts to be cut out, and their kids to be nailed to crosses, (before they can say, "oh never mind, I forgive you").

2. Evey system of morality is cuturally based on the needs of the culture, and how it relates to the specific environment. I usually suggest that a course in Cultural Anthroplogy. It's a premise based on ignorance. It's completely false. Morality arose in human culture to preserve the "group", and individuals in groups, and maintain the order they lived in, and needed to survive and rear the young. It's simply ignorance. It's not about god. It's ALL about survival.

The angry gods require sacrifice. Now get outside and slay them a goat. Cadet in Terse But Deadly
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26-03-2012, 03:24 PM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
Hey, Denicio.

While I can't say that I approve of the use of derogatory language like "sheeple", from a developmental psychology and a memetic standpoint, this person has a point that is demonstrably true. Your environment, including but not limited to your family, your neighbourhood and your church, play a huge role in the early development of your moral code and the fact that your ancestors (if this person's claim is in fact correct) believed in this sort of morality does as well. That being said, whether or not God had anything to do with it personally is another story.

If you had not been raised in that environmental context, it's probabilistically unlikely that you would have been taught that same moral code.

It is similarly probabilistically unlikely that you would have been raised in an alternate socio-cultural context that would have taught you to be depraved.

As far as, "you'll see when you're rotting in Hell," the conversation is over because you won't be able to determine the veracity of this person's claim until after death. At that point, you will be unable to return to life to conclude the conversation. Also, you cannot continue it in the afterlife because this person, conceivably, would be in heaven. If they are in hell with you, well, I suppose at that point you could lord his inability to listen to his own advice over him.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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26-03-2012, 09:29 PM (This post was last modified: 26-03-2012 09:33 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
(26-03-2012 03:24 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Denicio.

While I can't say that I approve of the use of derogatory language like "sheeple", from a developmental psychology and a memetic standpoint, this person has a point that is demonstrably true. Your environment, including but not limited to your family, your neighbourhood and your church, play a huge role in the early development of your moral code and the fact that your ancestors (if this person's claim is in fact correct) believed in this sort of morality does as well. That being said, whether or not God had anything to do with it personally is another story.

I know you're not trying to attack a straw man, and probably misread it (or mis-thought it slightly), but you are nonetheless. The case isn't for whether your environment is partly responsible for your moral code but whether it's entirely responsible for your moral code. I don't think any of us atheists are arguing that our moral code isn't at all derived from Christian practices, but we don't believe that it is solely responsible for it.

For example, is it alright to swear? I know that a lot of Christians feel that this is sinful, but they haven't derived this belief from the bible. Even if you take verses about "cursing" out of context to include curse words, the bible doesn't define what words are and aren't words that you're allowed to say... our culture does. There are several people who think swearing is fine, and several people who thinking swearing is wrong, and there are several people that believe it depends on context... but none of this came from the bible. The same is true about "dressing in Sunday clothes" to go to church, or about whether a church should make a profit, or about what constitutes the "Age of Innocence"... and these are all hotly contested issues in many churches for this very reason --- the bible doesn't elaborate on them, but there are many Christians who are willing to call "right" and "wrong" on them. Where did they derive these beliefs? Wherever they came from, it wasn't scripture... and I don't even see how you could make a case for these being a result of "Christian cuture", either. Going back to the swearing issue, why would Christians bother to invent words that they weren't allowed to say? And how could this list of words change if "Christian culture" is based on unchanging scripture?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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26-03-2012, 11:00 PM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
(26-03-2012 11:33 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(26-03-2012 09:12 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  [Image: RAP4_AK-47_GL_Front.jpg]
You'd respond the same way this guy does?

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On further consideration, you're right...




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