Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
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27-03-2012, 12:56 AM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
A belief in morality breeds intolerance and oppression. We are better off without it.

Me, i'm tolerant of diversity, I like it, it makes life interesting.
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27-03-2012, 07:25 AM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
Hey, Stevil.

Quote:A belief in morality breeds intolerance and oppression. We are better off without it.



Me, i'm tolerant of diversity, I like it, it makes life interesting

I'm with you on the diversity tip, but as for the first part, whaaaaa?

Do you mean a belief that one's moral code is the only one and that all others are shit, or are you suggesting that morality itself somehow breeds intolerance?

Hey, Starcrash.

Before accusing me of things, you should read harder (or un-miss-thought betterer... wait, what?).

One's socio-cultural context is not the only determinant in developmental psychology, but it certainly is one. Also, your socio-cultural context is not fixed. It is with you your entire life; or rather, you are in it. So if you grow up in an Amish village and then move to Sunny Valley to do porn, there is a slight, barely perceptible change in the impact of your socio-cultural context Cool

So yeah, if you grew up in a Christian home, then that fact had an influence on your development. So the guy has a point. The God thing, who knows? But just because you grew up in a Christian home doesn't mean that you are somehow magically precluded from further growth once you find yourself in a new situation.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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27-03-2012, 08:08 AM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
You have to go deeper.

When you ask yourself: "Why did people even create religion?" you end up with the answer to morality.

Back then whatever governments there were, they didn't provide security even on the most basic level. There were constant, gruesome wars. Eye to eye combat with rudimentary weapons is very gruesome. People lived in fear. They could be attacked anytime by someone who wanted their land for various reasons. Their own rulers would take everything away from them if they so pleased. And on top of that they had to contend with their peers behaving in "immoral" ways and harming them. It was a horrific time, talk about stress and fear.

Feeling safe at least in day to day life, knowing that your neighbor would not steal your food, steal your wife or kill you became incredibly important. The whole reason why we evolved into a more civilized way of living is based on each individual wanting to feel safe.

So the old testament, while accounting for all the war and mayhem of the times, gave people a guideline for living peacefully with their neighbors. It was still crude and "god" behaved in tune with the times, he was a capricious and cruel ruler. But he did provide guidelines for living peacefully with your tribe and neighbor.

Later, people became more civilized and intent on further reducing stress in daily life. And so we have Jesus, whether he actually existed or whether he was a folk tale. He presents a kinder, more moral god. Believers got commandements that more clearly focussed and defined how they treated each other in daily life.

Religious societies were perferable to barbaric ones. Daily life was better with morals. You were safer. Hence, religion was a good thing.

Fast forward, along came the separation of religion and state. This was an era of great liberation - people got to input into how they were governed and had a real visible moral leader instead of one that lives just in their heads. As this develops, we get to people voting on things. Even more individual power to influence morality(the law).

To me it is clear as day. And Europe is just a step ahead of us in the logical progression of living in the real world while maintaining the ever important morality.

Morality is founded on the simple desire to feel safe. It is also founded on the human capacity to feel empathy. Not only do you want to be safe yourself, you want others to be safe also.

A world without morality is a world where you live in daily fear. It is natural that humans should seek to be moral and for their peers to also be moral.

Some people are born wired differently, missing the fear component or the empathy component and these are the ones predisposed to be "amoral" and hence criminal.

Just the way I see it.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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27-03-2012, 08:19 AM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
(26-03-2012 11:00 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(26-03-2012 11:33 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  You'd respond the same way this guy does?

[Image: Members+of+a+militant+Islamic+group+Jund...+group.jpg]

On further consideration, you're right...



Now you are getting the picture! ;D

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27-03-2012, 09:11 AM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
Lol at Ghost and GhostExorcist reading the same thread at the same time Big Grin
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27-03-2012, 09:58 AM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
You can also think of morality as the evolutionary balance to the survival of the fittest.

Evolution isn't all physical, the mind evolved too. (at least some minds, lol!)

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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27-03-2012, 10:02 AM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
(27-03-2012 08:19 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Now you are getting the picture! ;D

Just found that FPS Russia youtube. Bad ass. Wink

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27-03-2012, 03:19 PM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
(27-03-2012 07:25 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Stevil.

Quote:A belief in morality breeds intolerance and oppression. We are better off without it.

Me, i'm tolerant of diversity, I like it, it makes life interesting
I'm with you on the diversity tip, but as for the first part, whaaaaa?

Do you mean a belief that one's moral code is the only one and that all others are shit, or are you suggesting that morality itself somehow breeds intolerance?
I differentiate personal values from morality.
Personal Values
A guide for the self on how to behave. Having personal values improves your own ability to make decisions quickly. Without personal values you would need to either be in tune with your emotions and make emotive responses to situations or you would need to take quite a bit of time to assess situations before making your response.
Since they are a guide only, you may recognise situations that require further assessment, so you take the time to do so. You might even be open to discussion about them and hence might change your own value given a compelling argument.
Since they are personal, you use them as a personal guide for your own actions or to teach your own children before they are capable of using reason themselves. You certainly can't make public claims as to things being immoral, because in the case of personal values all you can do is say, "Hey, I don't agree with that action, it is against my personal values", but this approach recognises that other people have different personal values.

Morality
Morality is a claim of knowledge as to what is absolute right and absolute wrong. Thus to my mind morality is simply a belief. In my view subjective morality is an oxymoron and would be more accurately classified as personal values.
From a theistic view of morality, it is an absolute standard of what is absolute right and what is absolute wrong. I feel this is a much more accurate description of the word "morality". But of course there is no absolute standard, otherwise we would all agree.

The dangers of morality
A belief in morality leads people to judge others and to implement law based on this moral standard. Moral based law oppresses people, causing conflict and sometimes war.
Religious wars are not based on fighting over which god people ought to believe in. They are based on which brand of morality to force onto society. When you decide that something is wrong and then you force this onto others, you oppress them. Sometimes people need to be oppressed in order to have a peaceful, safe, stable and functional society, therefore rapists, murderers etc need to be oppressed. But some people's "immoral" behaviour does not impact the goal of a peaceful, safe, stable and functional society. These people ought to be allowed to live the life of their choosing. Oppressing them is unnecessary and may cause conflict and war. So regardless if an action is deemed moral or immoral, people ought to choose for themselves how to behave.
(27-03-2012 08:08 AM)Dom Wrote:  You have to go deeper.

When you ask yourself: "Why did people even create religion?" you end up with the answer to morality.
Laws are created because people want to be safe within their society.

Morality is created because people want to be good and righteous.
Religion is created because people understand that it is difficult for humans to distinguish between good and bad. That people have differing opinions from each other as to what is good and bad and thus one cannot trust one's self to be correct. Religion offers a belief that there is an absolute morality, absolute right, absolute wrong and that it has not come about from fallible humans but instead an all perfect all knowing non human entity (a god), whom can do no wrong. We agree with you, that you are fallible and not trust worthy but the good news is that we have the rules given to us by the infallible god, you follow them and you too can do no wrong.
They then call these rules morality, they then fight to force this onto all of society.

With Christianity, maybe even Islam, even unbelief is assessed to be immoral, thus they are justified in oppressing or killing non believers.
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27-03-2012, 08:34 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2012 08:54 PM by ghostexorcist.)
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
(26-03-2012 09:39 AM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  Regarding other primates, the funniest example of morality that I have ever read about involved a lab experiment where monkeys were taught to hand in tokens to receive a treat of either grapes or cucumbers. They would get grapes, a tastier treat, if they handed in even more tokens than one would get for cucumbers. The researchers then started to give the monkeys who handed in more tokens cucumber just to see what they would do. Like any intelligent animal with a brain, the monkeys realized that they were getting screwed over. When the researchers offered them cucumber for their efforts, the monkeys either refused to take it, or, get this, they THREW IT AT THE RESEARCHER! HA! I could imagine one of those little guys thinking: “You son of a bitch!”

This is the original paper describing the experiment. It's called "Monkeys Reject Unequal Pay":

http://www.emory.edu/LIVING_LINKS/pdf_at...ualPay.pdf

Here is an interesting article on a follow up experiment:

http://notexactlyrocketscience.wordpress...raw-deals/

This is the paper on the follow up experiment. It is called "Inequity responses of monkeys modified by effort":

http://www.emory.edu/LIVING_LINKS/pdf_at...l_2007.pdf
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27-03-2012, 08:56 PM
RE: Atheists... how do you respond? Morality due ONLY to God.
@ HoC - awesome vid Thumbsup - I'll have to get the 'speaker' version at home as I don't have sound at work Angry
I don't like the things people do with weaponry but love what the weapons are capable of (and the technology) - I guess I just love exploding things. I've always wanted to fire a mini-gun. That would be mind-blowing Shocking (I've only ever fired a 45 auto)

@ Dom - fantastic post! (I like the way you think) Yes

Humankind Dodgy (a total misnomer)
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