Atheists losing job
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10-11-2010, 02:10 PM
RE: Atheists losing job
(10-11-2010 08:16 AM)BnW Wrote:  I don't think that is what Ghost was saying. He was not advocating a position, he was explaining the reality. And, I agree with his view of reality.

Something else I wanted to point out: these videos are all very gripping and stunning but they are not presenting enough actual data to make a determination if what they claim is true When this thread started I did a quick google search and the only stories I could find about people being fired for being atheists was teacher in parochial schools who came out as atheists outside of work but were fired for it. Now, I think it's tough to argue that a Catholic School teacher can be anything but a Catholic. My guess is a Catholic School teacher who came out as a Lutheran may have a similar problem. I guess at that point it depends on how many potential new teachers there are that are Catholics, but I can see a parochial school firing someone over that.

As for the issue in general, there are federal, and usually state, laws that protect people from being fired on the basis of certain things including religion. I'm not familiar with all the jurisprudence but I think there is certainly a strong legal argument to be made that being fired for having no religion would violate the prohibition on religious discrimination. Now, there are going to be obvious exceptions to this, like if the job itself is based on religious affiliation. A Jew can't claim discrimination for not being allowed to be a Catholic priest, but otherwise you can't do that.

So, without more details and some actual facts, I sort of read this like the sort of ranting that LeviTimes described in his family when he posted about how they feel Christians are always persecuted in this country. In the case of atheists I think there is some truth to it as are a huge minority (whereas Christians get their holidays off as federal holidays) but without some detail and proof, I just can't take this seriously. I'm sure there are instances of it, but that doesn't make it the norm.

The youtube atheist community is a self-policing group.When one of them does something stupid the other reacts.I do trust the stories to a point.

This is the teacher who was affected by his atheist position :
http://www.youtube.com/grapplingignorance
(try writing a PM if you want more details)

This was the segment on the teacher fired over witchcraft :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV25KvfJ-hc

Hope this provides some burden of proof.
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10-11-2010, 06:26 PM
RE: Atheists losing job
Sorry, but I don't consider one-sided youtube videos in any way, shape or form as satisfying any burden of proof.

And, it took 2 seconds to find a contrary view to this story: School claims he was fired for cause

The internet is a wonderful place but it's filled with a lot of outright bullshit, lies and people with various agendas. A group that claims to be driven by logic and objective reason really needs to be a little more critical of claims that sound, on their face, totally implausible.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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10-11-2010, 08:23 PM
RE: Atheists losing job
Fine , what would you consider to satisfy a burden of proof ?

As for the Young Turks , I quoted their news report because they seem like respectable independent media.They don't just have a channel on youtube.But I agree a news story is not proof.
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10-11-2010, 08:29 PM
RE: Atheists losing job
(10-11-2010 08:16 AM)BnW Wrote:  I don't think that is what Ghost was saying. He was not advocating a position, he was explaining the reality. And, I agree with his view of reality.

Something else I wanted to point out: these videos are all very gripping and stunning but they are not presenting enough actual data to make a determination if what they claim is true When this thread started I did a quick google search and the only stories I could find about people being fired for being atheists was teacher in parochial schools who came out as atheists outside of work but were fired for it. Now, I think it's tough to argue that a Catholic School teacher can be anything but a Catholic. My guess is a Catholic School teacher who came out as a Lutheran may have a similar problem. I guess at that point it depends on how many potential new teachers there are that are Catholics, but I can see a parochial school firing someone over that.

As for the issue in general, there are federal, and usually state, laws that protect people from being fired on the basis of certain things including religion. I'm not familiar with all the jurisprudence but I think there is certainly a strong legal argument to be made that being fired for having no religion would violate the prohibition on religious discrimination. Now, there are going to be obvious exceptions to this, like if the job itself is based on religious affiliation. A Jew can't claim discrimination for not being allowed to be a Catholic priest, but otherwise you can't do that.

So, without more details and some actual facts, I sort of read this like the sort of ranting that LeviTimes described in his family when he posted about how they feel Christians are always persecuted in this country. In the case of atheists I think there is some truth to it as are a huge minority (whereas Christians get their holidays off as federal holidays) but without some detail and proof, I just can't take this seriously. I'm sure there are instances of it, but that doesn't make it the norm.

Was the same persecution and hatred by the majority not waged against the GBTL movement?

Are these same arguments not also made for slavery of the black man in the late 1800s?

I agree reality may be harsh but history has shown that our situation is not only winnable but may just make the world a better place because of it.

I think that history shows that minorities that mobilize from frustration of oppression can and do win.
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10-11-2010, 08:41 PM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2010 08:47 PM by BnW.)
RE: Atheists losing job
Quote:Fine , what would you consider to satisfy a burden of proof ?

Well, for starters I'd need a story that I could not contradict by typing 4 words into the Google search bar that showed a dozen results that contradicted the Young Turks video.

And, I'm not suggesting that an Atheist has never been fired for being an Atheist any more than I'm suggesting a homosexual has never been fired for being gay, a Jew has never been fired for being Jewish, etc. Obviously there is all types of discrimination in the world or we wouldn't need laws to protect people from it. It's the same logic that compelled legislators to say that 40 year old men could not have sex with teenage girls - because otherwise we probably would. Well, I would at least.

But I digress.

Here's the point: to be taken seriously and to have credibility you must react consistently to not only those you disagree with but also those you inherently sympathize with. Logical arguments and positions must be applied consistently and equally regardless of the individuals involved or you're nothing more than a partisan and cannot be taken seriously. If there was some national outrage about a Christian who claimed she was fired from a job because of her speaking the Lord's good name at word and her atheist boss fired her, and it turned out she was simply grossly incompetent I've no doubt that people here would be all over those silly theists who claim persecution rather than face the truth, how it's about not doing your job, etc. I've been hanging around on this forum for a few months now and I have absolutely no doubt what the reaction to that story would be.

So, when I read a ridiculous story about a guy who's fired from a teaching job for doing a magic trick, and with within 10 seconds find a story about how the school claims the guy was using profanity, could not control the class and left a student in charge while he did who knows what - a story that seem entirely plausible to me - I think that seizing upon the "I was fired for being an atheist" aspect of it seriously impacts the credibility of anyone who seizes upon that story; that person is someone not interested in truth or objectivity but instead is pushing an agenda. Personally, I've no time or tolerance for agendas.

Defining an adequate burden of proof for a story like this is difficult. You're always going to have two sides to the story and you'll never know what is real and what is not if you were not directly involved. Sometimes you need to take a best guess. But, again, when the story is too stupid to be believable, it most likely isn't.

Godless - just saw your post. I assume you're responding to my first statement? If so, I wasn't suggesting just giving in. I was just stating that Ghost only put forth a view of reality and I agree with him that is reality. I guess it's up to each individual to determine what battles they feel are worth fighting. I'm not one to joust at windmills as long as no one is in my face trying to push their world view or religion on me. And, when that does happen I deal with it, but I'm not out to change the world. And, I think it's unfair to compare having to live in a world with religion to what gays and other minorities have dealt with. I've no doubt being an atheist in certain parts of the US is extremely difficult and perhaps there is a need to fight the fight in those locations (like if someone wants to teach ID in schools - I'm all over that fight), but I still don't see it rising to the level of persecution that a lot of groups have gone through. Perhaps it just depends on where you live. Living in the Northeast you don't have these issues.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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10-11-2010, 09:14 PM
RE: Atheists losing job
I guess it would depend on what you call a war. Part of the clarification I think was missing from Ghost's post.

However I think that the fact that such huge injustices that were set up by such a powerful majority were fought and won what does it say if our fight is much smaller in scope?

I don't think reality is as bleak as some make it out to be. Smile
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10-11-2010, 09:44 PM
RE: Atheists losing job
@BnW

Fair enough.I may have a bit of bias now that I'm officially a turncoat.
Maybe I'm reading too much into this story.

Still , besides peer-reviewed science journals , are we at the mercy of our own whims and guesses to whether a media story is true or not ? - that's a scary thought.
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10-11-2010, 10:24 PM
RE: Atheists losing job
Godless

Quote:I don't think reality is as bleak as some make it out to be. Smile

I think reality is fine and I've few issues with it. Sometimes it's harsh but, sometimes it's chaotic, sometimes it's unfair and sometimes it's generous. In terms of societal issues like religion, I'm a big "live and let live" guy. You want to waste your Sunday's in church, more power to you. Just don't wake me on the way out. As long as no one throws it in my face or tries to force me to buy into it, I've got no issues with what others do. it's when it starts to become part of national public policy that my blood starts to boil.

gaglamesh

Quote:Still , besides peer-reviewed science journals , are we at the mercy of our own whims and guesses to whether a media story is true or not ? - that's a scary thought.

Yep, it's scary. Tough to get good information and tougher to know who to trust. It helps to be a natural cynic, though. I just assume everyone is lying to me and then I'm pleasantly surprised if they are not.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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11-11-2010, 02:48 AM
RE: Atheists losing job
(10-11-2010 10:24 PM)BnW Wrote:  It helps to be a natural cynic, though. I just assume everyone is lying to me and then I'm pleasantly surprised if they are not.

Uhm , this is the definition of cynic I found : "a person who believes that only selfishness motivates human actions and who disbelieves in or minimizes selfless acts or disinterested points of view."

Don't you mean skeptic by any chance ? Or am I missing the point ? Sad
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11-11-2010, 07:47 AM
RE: Atheists losing job
No, I meant cynic. I'm a skeptic too, but I assume most people are lying to me for their own selfish reasons.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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