Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
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03-12-2014, 09:40 AM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(03-12-2014 07:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I mean I don't want my children to decide for themselves if they should be nazis, bigots, racists, or some other forms of scum on the earth, or take on any other extremely harmful lifestyle, that endangers not only them but humanity as a whole.

You're missing the whole point. If we educate our children in general and teach them critical thinking skills so they can properly process the information from that education, it's highly unlikely they would choose any of those things you mentioned.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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03-12-2014, 09:45 AM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
If I have children in the future, one thing's for certain: I'm not going to force him to go to church. I fully know what it's like to be forced to waste several hours every sunday going to church, and it wasn't really a pleasant experience. (though not the main reason why I became an atheist)
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03-12-2014, 10:26 AM (This post was last modified: 03-12-2014 10:34 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(03-12-2014 09:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  What part of 'human dignity' do you not understand?

You seem utterly blind to the fact that we can teach ethics and morals in a secular framework, that ethics can be rationally based.

I don't recall criticizing a secular frame work here.

But let's break it down. Good parents, raise their children to hold certain virtues, we teach them to posses certain qualities, such as being courageous, honest, caring, to seek after the things that are good. It can be said that we in someways indoctrinate these qualities into children. We don't leave the question of moral character open for them to decide on, and there are good reasons why, particularly when their external forces, peer pressures, etc.. that attempt to steer him in other directions.

When parents approach a situation in which others might be steering their children in directions that they deem as immoral, such as doing drugs, engaging in violence, or cruelty, or joining a gang, or joining some extremely harmful ideology, parents typically intervene, letting their disapproval of these ways of life be known. Children are not free to choose these ways of life if they desire to, in fact good parents will do all they can within their power to keep them from these disgusting ways of life.

Only an idiot parent, if in the midst of a child considering becoming a skin head, would stand back, and merely suggest that he think critically about that decision, and if that leads him to be skinhead, than so be it, to each his own.
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03-12-2014, 10:35 AM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(03-12-2014 10:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't recall criticizing a secular frame work here.

But let's break it down. Good parents, raise their children to hold certain virtues, we teach them to posses certain qualities, such as being courageous, honest, caring, to seek after the things that are good. It can be said that we in someways indoctrinate these qualities into children. We don't leave the question of moral character open for them to decide on, and there are good reasons why, particularly when their external forces, peer pressures, etc.. that attempt to steer him in other directions.

When parents approach a situation in which others might be steering him in directions that they deem as immoral, such as doing drugs, engaging in violence, or cruelty, or joining a gang, or going some extremely harmful ideology, parents typically intervene, letting their disapproval of these ways of life be known. Children are not free to choose these ways of life if the desire it, in fact good parents will do all they can within their power to keep them from these disgusting ways of life.

Only an idiot parent, if in the midst of a child considering becoming a skin head, would stand back, and merely suggest that he think critically about that decision, and if that leads him to be skinhead, than so be it, to each his own.

On the contrary, I don't want blind obedience from my children just because I said so. That was fine when they were 2 or 3 years old and unable to think for themselves, but now that they are older I much prefer that they do what's moral because they want to. And they should want to if I have taught them correctly because they will be much better off in life doing what's moral. Immoral people end up in jail or, if they don't, they have crappy lives running from the law, getting messed up on drugs, having few friends, not being able to really trust the few "friends" they have, etc. There are good reasons for behaving morally far beyond "because I said so". If a kid is thinking about becoming a skinhead, then that child's parent has failed miserably before that point.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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03-12-2014, 10:57 AM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(03-12-2014 10:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  On the contrary, I don't want blind obedience from my children just because I said so. That was fine when they were 2 or 3 years old and unable to think for themselves, but now that they are older I much prefer that they do what's moral because they want to. And they should want to if I have taught them correctly because they will be much better off in life doing what's moral. Immoral people end up in jail or, if they don't, they have crappy lives running from the law, getting messed up on drugs, having few friends, not being able to really trust the few "friends" they have, etc. There are good reasons for behaving morally far beyond "because I said so". If a kid is thinking about becoming a skinhead, then that child's parent has failed miserably before that point.

It's not really "because you said so either". We resort to more subtle ways of doing so, such as showing disappointment, displeasure, pain, disgust etc.. As a child I can remember that idea of disappointing my parents was something I didn't want to do, and I might even have avoided doing certain things because I didn't want to disappoint them. My parents had expectations for the sort of person they wanted me to be, honest, caring, etc.., and I didn't want to disappoint by doing thing contrary to them, even if there were immediate attractions to doing things that might not have been very moral.

I think the whole idea of keeping children as sort of open, blank slate, in which we solely encourage them to think critically and rationally, and nothing else, is just plain stupid, and in fact mythologize these aspects a great deal. You can be calculated, rational, cruel and devious. To believe you couldn't be, is the stuff of fairy tales.
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03-12-2014, 11:08 AM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(03-12-2014 10:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's not really "because you said so either". We resort to more subtle ways of doing so, such as showing disappointment, displeasure, pain, disgust etc.. As a child I can remember that idea of disappointing my parents was something I didn't want to do, and I might even have avoided doing certain things because I didn't want to disappoint them. My parents had expectations for the sort of person they wanted me to be, honest, caring, etc.., and I didn't want to disappoint by doing thing contrary to them, even if there were immediate attractions to doing things that might not have been very moral.

There isn't much difference between "because I said so" and not wanting to disappoint. Either way, it's merely obedience to authority. So, when the authority is no longer an issue (for example, the child grows up and moves to another state), there's no more need for obedience. Then it depends on what the child him/herself wants to do and it's why the critical thinking is key.

(03-12-2014 10:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think the whole idea of keeping children as sort of open, blank slate, in which we solely encourage them to think critically and rationally, and nothing else, is just plain stupid, and in fact mythologize these aspects a great deal. You can be calculated, rational, cruel and devious. To believe you couldn't be, is the stuff of fairy tales.

Part of their education can certainly include your opinion on what's right and wrong as well as your approval and disapproval as long as it's also backed up with the explanation for why your opinion makes sense. If you teach critical thinking skills and your opinion really isn't the best (we're all human after all), then it opens the door for the child to find something better. That sure beats children who are taught racism, for example, but never taught to think about it for themselves.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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03-12-2014, 11:10 AM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(03-12-2014 10:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think the whole idea of keeping children as sort of open, blank slate, in which we solely encourage them to think critically and rationally, and nothing else, is just plain stupid, and in fact mythologize these aspects a great deal. You can be calculated, rational, cruel and devious. To believe you couldn't be, is the stuff of fairy tales.

Nice strawman; no one here has advocated that. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-12-2014, 11:33 AM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(03-12-2014 11:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  Nice strawman; no one here has advocated that. Drinking Beverage

It appears no one here has a clear idea of what they are advocating.
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03-12-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(03-12-2014 11:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It appears no one here has a clear idea of what they are advocating.

No, it appears to be mainly you that doesn't understand. We don't start with a top-down, authoritative approach and we are more concerned with how to think than with what to think.

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03-12-2014, 12:01 PM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
Has anyone here left their kids to think it through on their own and then been startled by the questions they ask about God? Do you really think kids are born atheist and that when five-year-olds ask about a creator or creation or a supreme being, that they picked it up in the schoolyard or via the media? For those of you who seem gung-ho on this thread to raise kids either atheist or without presuppositions, what does the fact that EVERY kid eventually comes up with God questions tell you? Smile

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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