Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
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03-12-2014, 06:01 PM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(03-12-2014 05:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No it doesn't mean it's anymore likely to be true. We could just as well be predisposed to believing all sorts of stupid shit for all I care.

So you had no point in posting it?

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03-12-2014, 06:06 PM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(03-12-2014 06:01 PM)unfogged Wrote:  So you had no point in posting it?

No, they all had a point, to address the claims of the posters I was responding to, duh.
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03-12-2014, 06:15 PM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(03-12-2014 06:06 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-12-2014 06:01 PM)unfogged Wrote:  So you had no point in posting it?

No, they all had a point, to address the claims of the posters I was responding to, duh.

Shame that it didn't accomplish that then.

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04-12-2014, 11:38 AM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(03-12-2014 12:57 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(03-12-2014 12:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Do you really think kids are born atheist...

What reason do you have to believe that children are born with a belief in gods? There's no evidence this is the case.


(03-12-2014 12:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ...and that when five-year-olds ask about a creator or creation or a supreme being, that they picked it up in the schoolyard or via the media? For those of you who seem gung-ho on this thread to raise kids either atheist or without presuppositions, what does the fact that EVERY kid eventually comes up with God questions tell you? Smile

I see where you're going with this. You're trying to hint that the idea is so fundamentally correct that kids instinctively know it. I suppose that is one possible way to interpret that, although it involves a bit of presupposition. Given how ubiquitous the idea of gods are, I'd be surprised if some kid didn't hear about it from elsewhere. I mean, I don't swear in front of my kids, but they're going to pick those words up from somewhere. Is swearing so fundamentally true that all kids are born with knowledge of it?

Also, as long as we're on looking at ways to interpret kids asking about God with some presupposition involved: could this also hint that the idea of God is childish? I'm not saying it's true, but I suppose I could spit-ball that idea out there with equal credibility to your interpretation.

I didn't say they were born with a belief in a god or gods!

And you could say it was childish, but I would respond that many adults experience existential crises and adopt religion and/or establish a relationship with god.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-12-2014, 01:29 PM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(04-12-2014 11:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I didn't say they were born with a belief in a god or gods!

You certainly implied it. I was responding directly to this question:

(03-12-2014 12:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Do you really think kids are born atheist...

You ask that as if you don't believe it. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in any gods. This is directly contrasted with theism, which is a belief in one or more gods. Every person on the planet is either a theist or atheist. Never neither. Never both. In other words !T = A and !A = T.

So, if you think the kids aren't born atheist, then, by very definition, they must be born theists. If they are theists, then, by very definition, they must believe in one or more gods.
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04-12-2014, 03:33 PM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(04-12-2014 01:29 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 11:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I didn't say they were born with a belief in a god or gods!

You certainly implied it. I was responding directly to this question:

(03-12-2014 12:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Do you really think kids are born atheist...

You ask that as if you don't believe it. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in any gods. This is directly contrasted with theism, which is a belief in one or more gods. Every person on the planet is either a theist or atheist. Never neither. Never both. In other words !T = A and !A = T.

So, if you think the kids aren't born atheist, then, by very definition, they must be born theists. If they are theists, then, by very definition, they must believe in one or more gods.

I do follow your logic but would say young children are confused, learning and subject to change--therefore this thread exists to ask whether atheist parents are indoctrinating, playing by ear, etc.

Further, rather than say kids are born atheist, or theist, I would say, they are born with some propensity to seek and find God and--this is why life is a toughie--also the propensity to dim God in their knowledge. I would say mankind is a bunch of Jekyll and Hydes, not purely sinners and not perfect saints either.

This last still adheres to your logic, for while no person can be both atheist and theist--I agree--MANY people go back and forth, forth and back. Like adults are children and vice versa!

May I ask a personal question? When you were contemplating leaving Christianity--something you wrote you did after a long period of study and contemplation--during that time, did you go back and forth between atheism and theism, steps one way and the other?

Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-12-2014, 03:54 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2014 08:56 AM by Mr. Boston.)
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
I think kids are born with a curiosity and an inclination to have things make some sense to them. Wherever they can't get a satisfactory answer through their own deductive reasoning, they tend to accept the first answer they get from someone they trust (though they may ask "why" ad nauseum). They're born inquisitive but gullible; which is why indoctrination of any form is best started early when the boundary between fantasy and reality is still maleable.
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04-12-2014, 06:24 PM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(03-12-2014 02:20 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-12-2014 01:23 PM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  Fear of lightning or of hurricanes, or of the Big Bad Wolf, fear of death, concepts like fairness or right and wrong, a REASON for the good things and bad things that happen to people could lead a child to ask some of the same eternal questions that Bronze Age people asked when faced with the same problems. I'm not saying these things are evidence of a higher power - I'm saying the observation of these things might lead a child, as it led primitive Man, to postulate there might BE a higher power, and to then wish it to be true, and to then hope the higher power favors them above others.

In fact, we know that children regardless of religious or lack of religious upbringing from as early as we can tell, hold teleological beliefs, that pointy rock exists so porcupines can scratch their backs on. They are in fact intuitively creationist.
So what you are saying is people who have not been educated are creationist?
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04-12-2014, 06:27 PM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(03-12-2014 05:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-12-2014 05:14 PM)dirtstar Wrote:  How ridiculous to think if a child was born on a planet with no dogmas or religion, somehow that child would start thinking a supernatural figure made it all up???

it's very likely he would have presumed exactly this. He wouldn't be predisposed to naturalism that's for sure, lol. You seem to have it backward it's naturalism that has to be taught, man is predisposed to believing that there are spiritual/supernatural forces, hence why nearly every civilizations and tribe that has ever existed has believed in such forces, and powers at play in the world. And hence why it typically requires something along the lines of an education before one accepts naturalism.

Children are predisposed to see the world as a product of intent, inclined to teleological beliefs about the natural world. And these are the basic primers that have led to God beliefs and the abundance of such things in human history.

Disagree. If adults would not use supernatural explanations for things they do not understand kids would not insert god. They are taught "god did".
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04-12-2014, 08:13 PM
RE: Atheists not raising their kids as atheists
(04-12-2014 03:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I do follow your logic but would say young children are confused, learning and subject to change--therefore this thread exists to ask whether atheist parents are indoctrinating, playing by ear, etc.

Yeah, I'm not denying that. Just, in the strictest definition of the word, they're born atheist.


(04-12-2014 03:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Further, rather than say kids are born atheist, or theist, I would say, they are born with some propensity to seek and find God and--this is why life is a toughie--also the propensity to dim God in their knowledge. I would say mankind is a bunch of Jekyll and Hydes, not purely sinners and not perfect saints either.

I'd say you have to prove that. I'm not saying you don't believe it, but I see the idea as nonfalsifiable. Furthermore, the biggest determining factor in a person's religion seems to be where they were raised and what they were taught. Even if they do have a propensity to seek God, it seems to be weaker than cultural bias and stigma.


(04-12-2014 03:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  This last still adheres to your logic, for while no person can be both atheist and theist--I agree--MANY people go back and forth, forth and back. Like adults are children and vice versa!

True. I almost added an "at one time" qualifier, but I didn't.


(04-12-2014 03:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  May I ask a personal question? When you were contemplating leaving Christianity--something you wrote you did after a long period of study and contemplation--during that time, did you go back and forth between atheism and theism, steps one way and the other?

Thanks.

Honestly, I don't have a very solid answer for you. When the whole thing initially happened, it was gradual enough that I can't tell you when I went from "Christian with doubts" to "non-believer". There was a period toward the end where my stance was "I don't know what I believe". It was during this time that I was pretty sure I didn't believe it, but I still wanted to.

Anyway, there were a few parts there where I was "experimenting" with atheist thinking, so to speak. I'd allow myself to run things to logical conclusions I normally wouldn't. It's possible I was flip-flopping at some point. Again, it's hard to honestly evaluate it, because I was just beginning to get into some genuine introspection. I had been pretty dishonest with myself before that point.
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