Atheists on marriage
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07-08-2015, 05:18 AM
Atheists on marriage
Disclaimer: As i learnt from my intro thread, people here don't tend to read what you actually say. They read what they want to read. So i will post the disclaimer at the top of my question, and TWICE.
This is not a debate on the sorts "if you are atheist why did you get married?". Neither am i implying any correlation between atheist and decrease in marriages. I just want to know TTA users concept of marriage and discuss it with them.

Disclaimer: As i learnt from my intro thread, people here don't tend to read what you actually say. They read what they want to read. So i will post the disclaimer at the top of my question, and TWICE.
This is not a debate on the sorts "if you are atheist why did you get married?". Neither am i implying any correlation between atheist and decrease in marriages. I just want to know TTA users concept of marriage and discuss it with them.


My question is, what do you think of marriage as an institution? Do you believe in it? Do you believe marriage is an important part of human society? As studies show, fewer and fewer people are getting married. What effect do you think it will have on the modern concept of family? What effect do you think it will have on our population?

I'd like to present Japan as a case study. Fewer and fewer marriages are taking place there and fewer couples are having kids. Their population is rapidly decreasing. Over time a very small population of young people will have to support a very large population of old people who live longer and longer. They will have to bear their healthcare costs, pension, etc. Do you feel encouraging more people to marry at a younger age will help provide some relief to the situation?
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07-08-2015, 05:47 AM
RE: Atheists on marriage
There is very little link between marriage and birthrates. The socio-economic situation of Japan explain largely why its population is falling. Long story made very short, a productivist society which suffered from three successive massive recessions in the late 70's, mid 80', early 90's and weren't doing so great in the mid-2000, with very little immigration, a conservative culture when it comes to men and women relation and relative overpopulation of their country caused their birthrate to fall dramatically and now the situation has transformed itself in a structural problem. The same phenomenon can also be observed in a slightly lower form in Eastern Europe.

To me marriage is an institution that transformed itself radically over the last century from a binding contract between two household with the objective of passing down a heritage to legal descendant and the backbone of the quasi slave trade of women to the legalised and recognised union of two person into a single family unit.
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07-08-2015, 06:24 AM
RE: Atheists on marriage
(07-08-2015 05:18 AM)π¶∆ Wrote:  Disclaimer: As i learnt from my intro thread, people here don't tend to read what you actually say. They read what they want to read. So i will post the disclaimer at the top of my question, and TWICE.
This is not a debate on the sorts "if you are atheist why did you get married?". Neither am i implying any correlation between atheist and decrease in marriages. I just want to know TTA users concept of marriage and discuss it with them.

Disclaimer: As i learnt from my intro thread, people here don't tend to read what you actually say. They read what they want to read. So i will post the disclaimer at the top of my question, and TWICE.
This is not a debate on the sorts "if you are atheist why did you get married?". Neither am i implying any correlation between atheist and decrease in marriages. I just want to know TTA users concept of marriage and discuss it with them.


My question is, what do you think of marriage as an institution? Do you believe in it? Do you believe marriage is an important part of human society? As studies show, fewer and fewer people are getting married. What effect do you think it will have on the modern concept of family? What effect do you think it will have on our population?

I'd like to present Japan as a case study. Fewer and fewer marriages are taking place there and fewer couples are having kids. Their population is rapidly decreasing. Over time a very small population of young people will have to support a very large population of old people who live longer and longer. They will have to bear their healthcare costs, pension, etc. Do you feel encouraging more people to marry at a younger age will help provide some relief to the situation?

My, you are a rude one. I'll give you a politer answer than your manner of asking deserves.

I have no problem with marriage as a social institution, as long as it involves freely consenting adults. I very much like and value being married myself. I am also ecstatic that marriage has been expanded here in the US to include gay couples. All human societies have family structures; whether we call them "marriages" or not is immaterial. The number of marriages will partly reflect the structures rewarded by a society's legal and tax structures.

It's certainly possible that marriage rates have dropped because women in many places now have the ability to support themselves and do not have to attach themselves to a male's household. That's a good thing. The natural marriage rate may be lower than a marriage rate that is artificially heightened when women have fewer choices about how to support themselves, but it is still nowhere near zero. As noted above, the legal/tax structures adopted by various countries will also influence the marriage rate, depending on the advantages granted to that status.

I don't agree with slippery slope logic that holds because fewer people are getting married these days, at some point no people will get married. I can't assert that that won't happen, but there is also nothing "inevitable" about it. Nor would a downshift in worldwide population be a bad thing. I also don't accept the contention that as Japan goes, so will go the rest of the world. In Japan's case, I'll watch with interest to see what happens.

Encouraging people to marry at a young age with the expressed goal of maintaining population is a horrible idea that is more likely to create misery than social good. States with higher proportion of fundamentalist Christians hung up on purity culture and no sex outside of marriage--where marriages tend to be encouraged for younger adults to avoid "sin"--have the highest divorce rates. We should instead be encouraging long-term, supportive, stable partnerships to maximize productivity, human happiness, and the resources available to children of such (if any). Not telling an 18-year-old girl that she should get married in order to have sex and that she should have as many children as her body can take, and then a couple more.

My view is personal to me and not "the atheist position." There is no atheist position on marriage, except possibly for a dissent to the assertion of some religious people that marriage is ordained or sanctified by their god.
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07-08-2015, 06:29 AM
RE: Atheists on marriage
Family is an important social institution.
Marriage is a legal tool used by government and society to protect particular types of family.
Government and society should protect family. Marriage is an effective tool for doing so, however it is not the only tool nor is it necessarily the most effective tool due partially to the limited ways the law permits (or traditionally permits) it to be applied.

Some would like to do away with marriage altogether. Myself I see good value in marriage. My wife and I have been married for fourteen years and the institution has served us well enough. I think the public declarations and social implications can be positive especially when it comes to providing a stable environment to raise children (we have two children).

As for people not listening I think you should spend some time rereading the posts you have made here and thinking about the proper role of a guest in this place.

2/ 713- قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم:” من كان يؤمن بالله واليوم الآخر فليكرم ضيفه جائزته. قالوا: وما جائزته يا رسول الله؟ قال: يومه وليلته. والضيافة ثلاثة أيام، فما كان وراء ذلك فهو صدقة عليه”. متفق عليه.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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07-08-2015, 06:33 AM
RE: Atheists on marriage
I've no use for marriage. It's an outdated concept.

"Traditional Marriage" (counting stuff that's from PREVIOUS generations, and not the current few running about today) was a religious concept - and dealt primarily in property -- not love, commitment or anything else that it's come to mean today.

It was primarily about a man owning a woman. Plain and simple.

"Traditional marriages" were arranged by the family -- not by the individual.

I consider it akin to slavery - and I find it's time is past.

"Go forth and multiply" can kiss my ass too.... There's 8 billion people on this planet. If that's not enough - how many IS???

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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07-08-2015, 06:59 AM
RE: Atheists on marriage
Marriage is a contract between two people.

I see it as protective for a long term relationship and each partner. A promise to uphold your vows and not walk out when things get tough - and there will be times of difficulty. The contract makes it more difficult to dissolve the union, as well as establishes rights for each party.

Do I "believe" in marriage? Marriage exists, 50% fail. My parents have a beautiful marriage, and I thought that's what I was getting when I said my vows. I was very wrong.

Is marriage an important part of human society? Yes.

Fewer people getting married - Can't say I blame them. The dissolution of mine has been more painful than the death of any of my family members.

Encouraging marriage for the purpose of making more babies is not the only solution for Japan. Between overpopulation and the millions of neglected children living on the streets or in orphanages, the thought of trying to increase birth rates is a bit sickening to me. I'd much rather see people (this goes for worldwide) having fewer children than popping out children they can't support. Along the same line, I find it absurd and a waste of resources that people will pay massive amounts of money, even get a second mortgage on their house, to do infertility treatments when adoption is an option.

I'd rather see people wait until their late 20s to marry, when brain development is complete.

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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07-08-2015, 07:10 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2015 07:27 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Atheists on marriage
Marriage does not require belief, it isn't god.

I don't care about marriage nor dropping number of such unions if that's the case. Though I think same sex marriages should be allowed as there is no sensible reason for prohibit it.

Also (Japan nonwithstanding) I don't think there is need for more children, especially if would be parents don't have enough money. I recognize no right of parents to have children, only children right to have a good life; I don't care for adults claiming that they want child only for wellbeing of this potential child. There is nothing noble or good in giving birth to child that would be forced to live in poverty.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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07-08-2015, 07:40 AM
RE: Atheists on marriage
(07-08-2015 06:24 AM)julep Wrote:  Nor would a downshift in worldwide population be a bad thing.

This is a common misconception. When population decreases due to famine, plague or natural disasters, the populations decrease but their demographics remain same more or less.
But in case of Japan, and to some extent Germany (they are fixing it with immigration), When population decreases, it's because fewer kids are being born than people dying. The end result is a huge population of old people (japanese have some of the longest lifespan in the world). This people don't contribute much to society since they have retired. They have huge healthcare costs (get ill often) , need pension and even get discounts. I am not saying this is wrong. I am just saying that a smaller and smaller group of young people will have to support them, since they are the main drive of the economy. End result is economic collapse.

The point? Population reversals in the way mentioned are catastrophic.

(07-08-2015 07:10 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  is nothing noble or good in giving birth to child that would be forced to live in poverty.

Are you saying the poor have no right to have children?
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07-08-2015, 07:42 AM
RE: Atheists on marriage
Romania has a falling birthrate and shrinking population, and 99% of the population identifies as religious.

... this is my signature!
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07-08-2015, 07:48 AM
RE: Atheists on marriage
(07-08-2015 07:42 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Romania has a falling birthrate and shrinking population, and 99% of the population identifies as religious.

And here we have our first guy who missed the disclaimer TWICE. Congrats, you receive the "scrapping-the-bottom-of-the-barrel IQ" award.

I already mentioned that i am not implying any correlation with atheism...
BTW, Does Romania have a problem with Emigration?
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