Athiesm is illogical
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05-10-2015, 08:11 PM
RE: Athiesm is illogical
(05-10-2015 08:07 PM)WarGoddess Wrote:  LOL, this guy dropped this bullshit and hasn't responded once. I think we've been trolled! At leastI hope so, no one should be that stupid. I mean, who dresses him?

Drive by theists happen all the time here.

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05-10-2015, 08:16 PM
RE: Athiesm is illogical
(05-10-2015 07:58 PM)David Kragt Wrote:  I'm just using science and reason to try to get atheists to understand the implications of not believing that God exists.

Dave K

Spell that out for me, like I'm a two-year old.

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05-10-2015, 08:22 PM
RE: Athiesm is illogical
(05-10-2015 08:16 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(05-10-2015 07:58 PM)David Kragt Wrote:  I'm just using science and reason to try to get atheists to understand the implications of not believing that God exists.

Dave K

Spell that out for me, like I'm a two-year old.

Popcorn

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05-10-2015, 08:36 PM
RE: Athiesm is illogical
(05-10-2015 08:09 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-10-2015 07:58 PM)David Kragt Wrote:  No I'm not a nihilist, I'm a christian.

I'm just using science and reason to try to get atheists to understand the implications of not believing that God exists.

Dave K

Then you're on a fool's errand. "No one shall come to me, unless the Father draw him". Faith is not about science and reason. YOUR theology teaches that.
Faith is the abandonment of reason.
The only reason you think without your l'il blankey-boo (god) your life is meaningless, is that you've been trained to think that way.
Mother Teresa (who died an atheist) wrote in her memoirs "That which I see in myself, I fear to name" (atheism). She lost her faith, just like Bonhoffer. YOU cannot say life is meaningless for anyone other than yourself. If YOU need your Santa/blankey, by all means, cling to them, child.

I never claimed faith is about science and reason, I am not the least bit interested in what you think about me or my faith.

If you disagree with what I said about the universe show me where I am wrong.

You could start by showing how we are relevant to the universe
You could show how we are not insignificant.
You could explain all the ways we contribute to the universe.

Instead you attack what you assume I believe.

Dave K
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05-10-2015, 08:44 PM
RE: Athiesm is illogical
(05-10-2015 08:22 PM)Logisch Wrote:  
(05-10-2015 08:16 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Spell that out for me, like I'm a two-year old.

Popcorn

Many atheists, even some on this thread claim that they create their own meaning.

I just proved that based on science and reason life is totally meaningless including what they claim to have created in their own minds.

Dave K
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05-10-2015, 08:45 PM
RE: Athiesm is illogical
(05-10-2015 08:36 PM)David Kragt Wrote:  
(05-10-2015 08:09 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Then you're on a fool's errand. "No one shall come to me, unless the Father draw him". Faith is not about science and reason. YOUR theology teaches that.
Faith is the abandonment of reason.
The only reason you think without your l'il blankey-boo (god) your life is meaningless, is that you've been trained to think that way.
Mother Teresa (who died an atheist) wrote in her memoirs "That which I see in myself, I fear to name" (atheism). She lost her faith, just like Bonhoffer. YOU cannot say life is meaningless for anyone other than yourself. If YOU need your Santa/blankey, by all means, cling to them, child.

I never claimed faith is about science and reason, I am not the least bit interested in what you think about me or my faith.

If you disagree with what I said about the universe show me where I am wrong.

You could start by showing how we are relevant to the universe
You could show how we are not insignificant.
You could explain all the ways we contribute to the universe.

Instead you attack what you assume I believe.

Dave K

We are the only part of the universe, the only atoms and energy that we know of that is capable of understanding itself. There may be life out there somewhere, and I'm sure there is. However, we may never see it or experience it. All we have is here, all we have is us.

We are the only part of the universe that gets to be a participant for an infinitesimally small amount of time. Simply by existing, I am participating as the universe, I get to spend my days with my particular arrangements of atoms and energy, understanding other atoms and energy. Taking photographs of the rest of the universe, understanding what it is, who I am.

The universe cannot answer back to me, it is not conscious, near as we can tell. But I am conscious, and I am part of the universe. Why do I need to be relevant to the universe, why do I need to have a meaning to the rest of the universe and why do I need to have an intrinsic meaning to the rest of the universe when I am the universe, experiencing itself? I get to find my own meaning.

That and valhalla, babes and beer.

Official ordained minister of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please pm me with prayer requests to his noodly goodness. Remember, he boiled for your sins and loves you. Carbo Diem! RAmen.
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05-10-2015, 09:16 PM
RE: Athiesm is illogical
(05-10-2015 08:45 PM)Logisch Wrote:  
(05-10-2015 08:36 PM)David Kragt Wrote:  I never claimed faith is about science and reason, I am not the least bit interested in what you think about me or my faith.

If you disagree with what I said about the universe show me where I am wrong.

You could start by showing how we are relevant to the universe
You could show how we are not insignificant.
You could explain all the ways we contribute to the universe.

Instead you attack what you assume I believe.

Dave K

We are the only part of the universe, the only atoms and energy that we know of that is capable of understanding itself. There may be life out there somewhere, and I'm sure there is. However, we may never see it or experience it. All we have is here, all we have is us.

We are the only part of the universe that gets to be a participant for an infinitesimally small amount of time. Simply by existing, I am participating as the universe, I get to spend my days with my particular arrangements of atoms and energy, understanding other atoms and energy. Taking photographs of the rest of the universe, understanding what it is, who I am.

The universe cannot answer back to me, it is not conscious, near as we can tell. But I am conscious, and I am part of the universe. Why do I need to be relevant to the universe, why do I need to have a meaning to the rest of the universe and why do I need to have an intrinsic meaning to the rest of the universe when I am the universe, experiencing itself? I get to find my own meaning.

That and valhalla, babes and beer.

I don't believe we are capable of understanding ourselves at least not yet. It was just on the news the other night that scientists are going to start mapping the brain so they can understand exactly how it works.

I never said you had to have intrinsic meaning or that you had to be relevant to the universe or that you had to contribute to the universe. I said that because you are not relevant, and because you are insignificant and that because you are a helpless bystander and because you contribute nothing to the universe that your life is meaningless.

If you want to use your insignificant brain to create subjective fantasy of meaning go right ahead, however you are letting your subjective thinking get in the way of objective reality

Dave K
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05-10-2015, 09:21 PM
RE: Athiesm is illogical
(05-10-2015 09:16 PM)David Kragt Wrote:  If you want to use your insignificant brain to create subjective fantasy of meaning go right ahead, however you are letting your subjective thinking get in the way of objective reality

If you want to define "meaning" so narrowly as to exclude the possibility of personal feelings entering in on the subject, go right ahead.

You are, however, letting your incredibly anal and syntactically worthless definitions get in the way of any sort of meaningful conversation.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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05-10-2015, 09:28 PM
RE: Athiesm is illogical
(05-10-2015 09:16 PM)David Kragt Wrote:  
(05-10-2015 08:45 PM)Logisch Wrote:  We are the only part of the universe, the only atoms and energy that we know of that is capable of understanding itself. There may be life out there somewhere, and I'm sure there is. However, we may never see it or experience it. All we have is here, all we have is us.

We are the only part of the universe that gets to be a participant for an infinitesimally small amount of time. Simply by existing, I am participating as the universe, I get to spend my days with my particular arrangements of atoms and energy, understanding other atoms and energy. Taking photographs of the rest of the universe, understanding what it is, who I am.

The universe cannot answer back to me, it is not conscious, near as we can tell. But I am conscious, and I am part of the universe. Why do I need to be relevant to the universe, why do I need to have a meaning to the rest of the universe and why do I need to have an intrinsic meaning to the rest of the universe when I am the universe, experiencing itself? I get to find my own meaning.

That and valhalla, babes and beer.

I don't believe we are capable of understanding ourselves at least not yet. It was just on the news the other night that scientists are going to start mapping the brain so they can understand exactly how it works.

I never said you had to have intrinsic meaning or that you had to be relevant to the universe or that you had to contribute to the universe. I said that because you are not relevant, and because you are insignificant and that because you are a helpless bystander and because you contribute nothing to the universe that your life is meaningless.

If you want to use your insignificant brain to create subjective fantasy of meaning go right ahead, however you are letting your subjective thinking get in the way of objective reality

Dave K

This must be the part where you preach about jesus and tell us that we can have meaning if we believe in him, etc etc.

Official ordained minister of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please pm me with prayer requests to his noodly goodness. Remember, he boiled for your sins and loves you. Carbo Diem! RAmen.
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05-10-2015, 09:28 PM
RE: Athiesm is illogical
(05-10-2015 08:44 PM)David Kragt Wrote:  Many atheists, even some on this thread claim that they create their own meaning.

I just proved that based on science and reason life is totally meaningless including what they claim to have created in their own minds.

Dave K

You have proven nothing. Rather, you have offered an opinion drawn from a biased interpretation of incomplete evidence.

The idea that something has meaning is a human construct and is itself meaningless when applied without a human context. Meaning cannot be assigned by anything other than a human (so far as can be demonstrated), and so humans do, in fact, create their own meaning.

Don't get me wrong. Personally I envy believers. Having once been of their number I have personal knowledge of how comforting and comfortable it can be. Having an Our Father Who Art in Heaven, in whose lap you can safely sit until life's demons leave you in peace, is marvelous. Some of us, however, have chosen to depart from the nest and strike out on our own. We are experiencing the world outside the warm comfort in which the rest have chosen to remain. Yes, it's cold, wet and dangerous out here, but it's the way things really are. We hold that it is better to see and deal with the world as it is, without it being filtered through an ancient set of morality plays.

I could be wrong. If I am, would a god who, as I am told, created me and gave me my reason and intellect and who, as I am also told, is infinitely compassionate, really abandon me for all eternity simply because I misunderstood? Western religion, especially, teaches that Faith and Reason are diametrically opposed (Martin Luther called Reason a whore). Yet, intellect is what separates us from the so-called "lower orders." If humanity really is the special product of a creator god, then our intellect is his special gift to us. To not use it to the best of our ability would be to refuse that gift and thereby insult the giver. It therefore seems appropriate to ask whether, if using our intellect to the best of our ability results in honest error, that merits divine punishment? At the very least it strikes me that an honestly-held disbelief would be more-favorably received by a creator god than would a more-cynical "faith" professed for the sake of playing it safe or hedging a bet (Pascal's Wager).

As for the meaning of my existence, well, that's really none of your business. It's of concern only to myself and the lives that I affect. Your existence will probably cease to have meaning to me as soon as I lose interest in this thread, as mine will for you. My ego can stand it.
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