Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
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04-06-2016, 01:00 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 09:25 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  So St. Augustine and his influence is non existent as an impact on variety of Christianitys?

Sure, and some forms of Christianity put considerable stock in a particular atonement theologies, while some like Catholicism, leave the question open.

But pretty much in every view of atonement, including among those who subscribe to Augestianian views, the concept of forgiveness of sins, of confessing your sins, of atoning for your sins, is a matter of asking for forgiveness for yourself, not for what someone else did, let alone someone 2000 years ago.

No one particularly preaches the concept of sin, as the failing of someone thousands of years ago, but a personal failing one must repent of. No preacher is out there telling it's congregation to ask for forgiveness of what Adam did. As if they imagine individuals perfect, good, sinless absent of this.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-06-2016, 01:24 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 01:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No one particularly preaches the concept of sin, as the failing of someone thousands of years ago, but a personal failing one must repent of. No preacher is out there telling it's congregation to ask for forgiveness of what Adam did. As if they imagine individuals perfect, good, sinless absent of this.

Umm, no. According to catholic doctrine:

Quote: 402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

vatican

Quote:416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.

417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".

418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").

That is Roman Catholic Doctrine.

Guess what else that means: While the good old RCC no longer teaches limbo, they do not refute the teaching that unbaptized souls go to hell. They express "hope for god's mercy".

Quote:However, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992), the theory of limbo is not mentioned. Rather, the Catechism teaches that infants who die without baptism are entrusted by the Church to the mercy of God, as is shown in the specific funeral rite for such children. The principle that God desires the salvation of all people gives rise to the hope that there is a path to salvation for infants who die without baptism.

The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness, even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in Revelation.

vatican link

The pope can sat whatever PR bullshit he wants, but nothing has changed.

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04-06-2016, 01:47 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 03:51 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 06:39 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I still have these musings about religion, so I have recently been contemplating atonement.

A good example of the concept of atonement is represented by this verse in Romans:

Romans 5:18:- So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

So. What's wrong with this picture ?
Romans is generally considered one of the authentic Pauline letters.
Atonement / salvation is a not at all a Jewish notion. It's also not the role of the "anointed one''. So for many reasons, it's a "later' concept, introduced to keep the need for the communities going, after the end-times didn't happen. Since the members of the Way cult, Christian sub-sect of Judaism were still strong at the end of the 1st Century, I say Paul couldn't have written it.

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04-06-2016, 01:56 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 02:09 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 01:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Sure, and some forms of Christianity put considerable stock in a particular atonement theologies, while some like Catholicism, leave the question open.

False. 100 % wrong. Catholicism in NO WAY, "leaves the question open' regarding atonement. What an incredibly stupid and ignorant thing to say. Who are you try to fool here Tomasia. You really have NO CLUE what you're doing here.

Quote:But pretty much in every view of atonement, including among those who subscribe to Augestianian views, the concept of forgiveness of sins, of confessing your sins, of atoning for your sins, is a matter of asking for forgiveness for yourself, not for what someone else did, let alone someone 2000 years ago.

False. At least Catholic theology teaches that without the salvific act on the cross, there is no salvation. Nice try at trying to look informed on the subject. Clearly you are not. AT ALL.

Quote:No one particularly preaches the concept of sin, as the failing of someone thousands of years ago, but a personal failing one must repent of. No preacher is out there telling it's congregation to ask for forgiveness of what Adam did. As if they imagine individuals perfect, good, sinless absent of this.

Yes they do. All of Catholic theology is built on Original Sin.

BTW, AugUstinian has no 'e'.
Did you go to Trump University preacher school ?

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04-06-2016, 02:43 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 01:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  False. 100 % wrong. Catholicism in NO WAY, "leaves the question open' regarding atonement. What an incredibly stupid and ignorant thing to say. Who are you try to fool here Tomasia. You really have NO CLUE what you're doing here.

Lol, you're the one ignorant here. The Catholic church does not have an official atonement theology, unlike some protestant denominations.

Quote:Yes they do. All of Catholic theology is built on Original Sin.

It is for the most part, but that doesn't refute what I stated. In fact all sin is built on original sin.

"The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination. Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay."

...
"After that first sin, the world is virtually inundated by sin There is Cain's murder of his brother Abel and the universal corruption which follows in the wake of sin. Likewise, sin frequently manifests itself in the history of Israel, especially as infidelity to the God of the Covenant and as transgression of the Law of Moses. And even after Christ's atonement, sin raises its head in countless ways among Christians.287 Scripture and the Church's Tradition continually recall the presence and universality of sin in man's history"

It's the OP conception of sin, excluding the presence and universality of sin that connects original sin, to all sin, that's the problem here. TO imagine atonement removed from the entirety here, and reserved exclusively for an act supposedly committed thousands of years ago, is problematic for a variety of reasons, creates a whole slew of strawman, a version of Christian theology that no one actually subscribe to.

But I don't expect the guy that can't determine whether Paul meant a literal brother or not, to understand Catholic or Christian theology, beyond some cheaply formed fundamentalism.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-06-2016, 02:58 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 02:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Lol, you're the one ignorant here. The Catholic church does not have an official atonement theology, unlike some protestant denominations.

Their ENTIRE theology (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ar...22a4p2.htm
is suffused with atonement. Thanks for proving you're an amateur.

Quote:It is for the most part, but that doesn't refute what I stated. In fact all sin is built on original sin.

Ah yes. Shown to be ignorant and WRONG, Tommy equivocates. You are a worse charlatan than Trump.

Quote:It's the OP conception of sin, excluding the presence and universality of sin that connects original sin, to all sin, that's the problem here. TO imagine atonement removed from the entirety here, and reserved exclusively for an act supposedly committed thousands of years ago, is problematic for a variety of reasons, creates a whole slew of strawman, a version of Christian theology that no one actually subscribe to.

No one did anything of the sort. you lied, and made it up.

Quote:But I don't expect the guy that can't determine whether Paul meant a literal brother or not, to understand Catholic or Christian theology, beyond some cheaply formed fundamentalism.

No one care what a theologiocal charlatan thinks.
I know more theology than you ever will. Thanks for the red herring, and again proving your presuppositionalism has you so tight in it's grip, your balls are blue.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-06-2016, 03:03 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 03:08 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 02:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It is for the most part, but that doesn't refute what I stated. In fact all sin is built on original sin.

LOL
Prove it. There WAS no "original sin". It's not a Biblical (OT idea). The Jews sinned, and had no notion of it. You're REALLY an amateur making up shit here, Tommy Boy.
There is no evidence that humans were once any different (perfect) than they are today. YOU have no evidence for Original Sin. Jebus never said anything about it. It's not in the Bible.

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04-06-2016, 03:21 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 02:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Lol, you're the one ignorant here. The Catholic church does not have an official atonement theology, unlike some protestant denominations.

Um, I attend a catholic christian university (Saint Leo University) and I am working on my 4th degree, 2nd masters, with them. My first degree which is in religious studies is where my incarnation and atonement paper came from that I posted. Note the references.......

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-06-2016, 03:22 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 02:58 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Their ENTIRE theology (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ar...22a4p2.htm
is suffused with atonement. Thanks for proving you're an amateur.

You clearly don't know what atonement theologies are, like Ransom theory, Penal Substitution, Christus Victor, Scapegoating theory, etc.. While a variety of protestant denomination endorse one particular atonement theology as their position. Catholicism does not have an official atonement theory. They don't officially endorse one exclusive view, at the exclusion of all other views, like some protestant branches might.

You're the amateur here dude, confused as fuck.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-06-2016, 03:41 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 03:53 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 03:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 02:58 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Their ENTIRE theology (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ar...22a4p2.htm
is suffused with atonement. Thanks for proving you're an amateur.

You clearly don't know what atonement theologies are, like Ransom theory, Penal Substitution, Christus Victor, Scapegoating theory, etc.. While a variety of protestant denomination endorse one particular atonement theology as their position. Catholicism does not have an official atonement theory. They don't officially endorse one exclusive view, at the exclusion of all other views, like some protestant branches might.

You're the amateur here dude, confused as fuck.

They have their own. Just because someone doesn't buy your Bible College shit, doesn't mean YOU get to define anything. I know what atonement theologies are. The RC's have their own. i realize your Two Bit Bible College taught you to say that. It's WRONG. No one is "confused'. Amateurs are frequently WRONG. It's Catholic DOCTRINE.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02055a.htm

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