Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
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04-06-2016, 03:58 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
I will just set this down, and go back to my paper...

"Once a sin has been performed, something good must be done to restore the balance. For example, a sin is an incurrence of debt to God, the source of order, and that debt must be paid through true repentance" (Albl 271).

Reference:
Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-06-2016, 04:16 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 04:21 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 03:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  They have their own. Just because someone doesn't buy your Bible College shit, doesn't mean YOU get to define anything. I know what atonement theologies are. The RC's have their own. i realize your Two Bit Bible College taught you to say that. It's WRONG. No one is "confused'. Amateurs are frequently WRONG. It's Catholic DOCTRINE.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02055a.htm

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Catholicism doesn't have an official atonement theory. There isn't a uniquely catholic view of atonement theology, at the exclusion of protestant views.

Catholicism sees atonement theories, at best as speculative, problematic when any particular one is taken too literally. And invest more into results of atonement, more so than the means as to how it was accomplished. They'll agree with other Christians that Christ liberated us from sin, but yet hold no official position as to how this took place. Analogous to agreeing that we've all been freed from prison but leaving the question of mechanism that freed us, as speculative, as mysterious, for good reason of course. The NT itself is absent of an atonement theology. The Gospels say a lot about Christ freeing us from sin, yet offer no atonement theology of their own. The early fathers who often speculated about atonement theologies, often noted their own limitations, like Anselm acknowledging that his own views are not to be taken as definitive.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02055a.htm

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04-06-2016, 05:18 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 05:30 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 04:16 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 03:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  They have their own. Just because someone doesn't buy your Bible College shit, doesn't mean YOU get to define anything. I know what atonement theologies are. The RC's have their own. i realize your Two Bit Bible College taught you to say that. It's WRONG. No one is "confused'. Amateurs are frequently WRONG. It's Catholic DOCTRINE.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02055a.htm

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Catholicism doesn't have an official atonement theory. There isn't a uniquely catholic view of atonement theology, at the exclusion of protestant views.

Catholicism sees atonement theories, at best as speculative, problematic when any particular one is taken too literally. And invest more into results of atonement, more so than the means as to how it was accomplished. They'll agree with other Christians that Christ liberated us from sin, but yet hold no official position as to how this took place. Analogous to agreeing that we've all been freed from prison but leaving the question of mechanism that freed us, as speculative, as mysterious, for good reason of course. The NT itself is absent of an atonement theology. The Gospels say a lot about Christ freeing us from sin, yet offer no atonement theology of their own. The early fathers who often speculated about atonement theologies, often noted their own limitations, like Anselm acknowledging that his own views are not to be taken as definitive.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02055a.htm

The Catholic DOCTRINE of atonement PRECEDED all the fundy Protestant views. I just proved it to you. You can't fucking READ ? Repeating something stupid, does not make it so. You didn't even fucking read the link. t
o deal with the subject is the fundy off-shoots that you learned at Two Bit Bible, but fundy atonement is not the ONLY, or even original way it exists. It's VERY specific. It just hasn't gone down the street of stupid like fundamentalism.

"More than twelve centuries before this, the same dogma was proclaimed in the words of the Nicene Creed, "who for us men and for our salvation, came down, took flesh, was made man; and suffered. "And all that is thus taught in the decrees of the councils may be read in the pages of the New Testament. For instance, in the words of Our Lord, "even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a redemption for many" (Matthew 20:28); or of St. Paul, "Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell; and through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven." (Colossians 1:19-20).

The great doctrine thus laid down in the beginning was further unfolded and brought out into clearer light by the work of the Fathers and theologians. And it may be noted that in this instance the development is chiefly due to Catholic speculation on the mystery, and not, as in the case of other doctrines, to controversy with heretics. At first we have the central fact made known in the Apostolic preaching, that mankind was fallen and was raised up and redeemed from sin by the blood of Christ. But it remained for the pious speculation of Fathers and theologians to enter into the meaning of this great truth, to inquire into the state of fallen man, and to ask how Christ accomplished His work of Redemption. By whatever names or figures it may be described, that work is the reversal of the Fall, the blotting out of sin, the deliverance from bondage, the reconciliation of mankind with God. And it is brought to pass by the Incarnation, by the life, the sufferings, and the death of the Divine Redeemer. All this may be summed up in the word Atonement. This, is so to say, the starting point. And herein all are indeed at one. But, when it was attempted to give a more precise account of the nature of the Redemption and the manner of its accomplishment, theological speculation took different courses, some of which were suggested by the various names and figures under which this ineffable mystery is adumbrated in Holy Scripture. Without pretending to give a full history of the discussions, we may briefly indicate some of the main lines on which the doctrine was developed, and touch on the more important theories put forward in explanation of the Atonement."

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-06-2016, 05:50 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 03:58 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I will just set this down, and go back to my paper...

"Once a sin has been performed, something good must be done to restore the balance. For example, a sin is an incurrence of debt to God, the source of order, and that debt must be paid through true repentance" (Albl 271).

Reference:
Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

I think you’re being ignored...I wonder why Consider

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04-06-2016, 06:07 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 05:50 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 03:58 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I will just set this down, and go back to my paper...

"Once a sin has been performed, something good must be done to restore the balance. For example, a sin is an incurrence of debt to God, the source of order, and that debt must be paid through true repentance" (Albl 271).

Reference:
Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

I think you’re being ignored...I wonder why Consider

Consider

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-06-2016, 06:58 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
I think we're seeing exactly why there are over 40,000 different sects of Christianity. Give it up Tomasia, everyone has their own opinion of what atonement is, it's an opinion, and that's it.

This is ultimately Christianity in a nutshell, all you can offer is your opinion/interpretation but you can never resolve the truth, you can only assert it.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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04-06-2016, 07:16 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 06:58 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I think we're seeing exactly why there are over 40,000 different sects of Christianity. Give it up Tomasia, everyone has their own opinion of what atonement is, it's an opinion, and that's it.

This is ultimately Christianity in a nutshell, all you can offer is your opinion/interpretation but you can never resolve the truth, you can only assert it.

The truth cannot be resolved because there isn't one. Theology is all made up - no facts are involved. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-06-2016, 07:25 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 04:16 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  There isn't a uniquely catholic view of atonement theology, at the exclusion of protestant views.


Is meaningless.
Would you care to rewrite that in correct English, so we know WTF you're saying ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-06-2016, 07:38 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 07:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 06:58 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I think we're seeing exactly why there are over 40,000 different sects of Christianity. Give it up Tomasia, everyone has their own opinion of what atonement is, it's an opinion, and that's it.

This is ultimately Christianity in a nutshell, all you can offer is your opinion/interpretation but you can never resolve the truth, you can only assert it.

The truth cannot be resolved because there isn't one. Theology is all made up - no facts are involved. Drinking Beverage

Debating the color of unicorn farts would be an apt analogy.

Here you go Tomasia, a gift from me. You can put it next to the ziplock full of atonement.

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“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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04-06-2016, 08:26 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 07:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 04:16 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  There isn't a uniquely catholic view of atonement theology, at the exclusion of protestant views.


Is meaningless.
Would you care to rewrite that in correct English, so we know WTF you're saying ?

By phrasing it that way he is still trying to claim he is right, we are wrong. Since the christian doctrines all say that christ died for all sins, you can't exclude protestant views from catholic views.

He is creating a distinction between catholic atonement and protestant atonement, which does not exist.

The only difference I can think of is the sale of indulgences. while that is a difference, it is not different in the way we were discussing. It is not valid.

In other words, typical tommy-bullshit. Strawmen, logical fallacies and misdirection. No substance.

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