Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
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04-06-2016, 08:43 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 08:26 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 07:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Is meaningless.
Would you care to rewrite that in correct English, so we know WTF you're saying ?

By phrasing it that way he is still trying to claim he is right, we are wrong. Since the christian doctrines all say that christ died for all sins, you can't exclude protestant views from catholic views.

He is creating a distinction between catholic atonement and protestant atonement, which does not exist.

The only difference I can think of is the sale of indulgences. while that is a difference, it is not different in the way we were discussing. It is not valid.

In other words, typical tommy-bullshit. Strawmen, logical fallacies and misdirection. No substance.

He said
Quote:some forms of Christianity put considerable stock in a particular atonement theologies, while some like Catholicism, leave the question open

There is nothing "open' about the RC's doctrine of atonement. He's just never read anything about it, as Two Bit Bible doesn't talk about it.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-06-2016, 09:15 PM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 08:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  He said
Quote:some forms of Christianity put considerable stock in a particular atonement theologies, while some like Catholicism, leave the question open

There is nothing "open' about the RC's doctrine of atonement. He's just never read anything about it, as Two Bit Bible doesn't talk about it.

Yes. I was surprised he argued about that, since several of us linked to the vatican website that specifically refuted him.

If anything atonement is one of the more ironclad doctrines in the RCC.

No way are they wiggling on hell. Too effective a tool of social control for them to give up...

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05-06-2016, 06:15 AM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 12:47 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Anselm suggests that since we know God’s will is never irrational, we can be confident that God had some reason for doing what he did, even if we do not see or understand what the reason is (Visser 214).

Yeah, funny that even Anselm can't make sense out of the atonement concept.

It puts fundamental limits on what god can and can't do, Anselm eventually throws up his hands and says "WTF?!" Laugh out load

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Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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05-06-2016, 08:19 AM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 09:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Except according to any given variety of Christianity, everyone has something to do with the act. No common form of Christianity, has a person confessing to be a sinner because of the acts of some dude several thousand years ago. They may believe that sin entered the world through Adam, yet they hold that we're all active participants in it in the here and now.

How are the underlined and bold not the same thing?

(04-06-2016 09:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No person ever seems to convicted of being a sinner for the actions of Adam.

You are ignoring half the human race. Genesis literally says women must suffer painful childbirth because of Eve. This is immoral.


(04-06-2016 09:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Which would be like saying our transgressions have more power than forgiveness. Or our indifference, and hatred, have more power than love. Which may be true, at least for those who never lay witness to the power of grace, forgiveness, or love.

This ignores those of us who did feel we saw the power and over time it eroded in light of reality.

(04-06-2016 09:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The reality of being human, is that failings, our transgressions often consume us, and become a seemingly irreparable aspect of who we are. How to heal, to be made whole again, constantly alludes us.

Not to be a grammar nazi but it Is ELUDED. I do agree that negative things can consume a person. However, there is no reason to think that the supernatural is a solution seeing how there is no evidence of its existence.

(04-06-2016 09:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Sin is an archery term, meaning missing the mark. If that mark is to be perfect, to be Good, that it's to miss that mark. It's to point to human history and recognize that truth doesn't bear the marks of love, justice, or goodness, but often the marks of indifference, hatred, and injustice which prevail.

The definition of sin is irrelevant. Good and perfection are not the same thing. Don't conflate the two. Killing a someone for the transgression of another is not good. In ANY circumstance. Indifference, hatred, and injustice are precisely what follows whenever faith is put in the place of power. Happens every time and human history is littered with the bodies of those who have been ground into dust under the heel of the boot of religion.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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11-06-2016, 06:00 AM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
Sin does not exist, only guilt.
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11-06-2016, 06:38 AM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(11-06-2016 06:00 AM)carusmm Wrote:  Sin does not exist, only guilt.

Way to miss the point of the thread, Skippy.
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11-06-2016, 07:10 AM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(04-06-2016 03:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  [...] You clearly don't know what atonement theologies are, like Ransom theory, Penal Substitution, Christus Victor, Scapegoating theory, etc.
As theists it's totally immaterial whether we understand "atonement" or not. You repeatedly seem to forget that you're debating atheists here, not fellow religionists. Most of us don't give a flying fuck for all your silly beliefs and the nonsensical content of your so-called holy book.

I'm guessing the only penal substitution here is the giant plastic one inserted firmly in your arsehole.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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11-06-2016, 07:13 AM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(11-06-2016 06:00 AM)carusmm Wrote:  Sin does not exist, only guilt.

So says the newest resident retard. Rolleyes

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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11-06-2016, 07:41 AM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(11-06-2016 07:13 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 06:00 AM)carusmm Wrote:  Sin does not exist, only guilt.

So says the newest resident retard. Rolleyes

So you believe in God, do you?
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12-06-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: Atonement is incoherent and self-contradictory.
(11-06-2016 07:41 AM)carusmm Wrote:  So you believe in God, do you?

Yeah..... like I believe you have a fully functioning brain LOL.

[Image: emptybrain.jpg]

The fruitless search for
carusmm's lost brain continues.


Big Grin

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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