Attacking the God Hypothesis... in a different way.
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16-04-2014, 11:45 AM
RE: Attacking the God Hypothesis... in a different way.
Essentially, this argument FORCES the theists to look at it from our perspective. If they think the evil God is stupid, then by default, they are saying the good God is stupid due to them being the same thing.

“Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
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16-04-2014, 12:48 PM
RE: Attacking the God Hypothesis... in a different way.
(16-04-2014 11:45 AM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  Essentially, this argument FORCES the theists to look at it from our perspective. If they think the evil God is stupid, then by default, they are saying the good God is stupid due to them being the same thing.

Hmm... an opinion about a fictional character... Consider
Okaaaaay...

"If they think the evil God is stupid, then by default, they are saying the good God is stupid due to them being the same thing."

I'm thinking all bets are off when it comes to god and any involvement with uh ... logic.
No doubt mercy would trump any questionable activity got up to by this unseen, unknowable thing-to-worship-or-else.

I'm not only referring just to the christee god; I'm nearly finished reading the Qur'an and if I read "allah is all merciful" one more fucking time... I. will. scream. Blink

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16-04-2014, 01:14 PM
RE: Attacking the God Hypothesis... in a different way.
(16-04-2014 01:22 AM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  So, theists tend to direct god to all good. Intellectual theists don't always do it, but many times, they do.

So, lets put God into perspective from THEIR side of the field.

-There is NO argument when trying to prove God with scientific explanations that point God to being all good. Only powerful and knowledgable.

-If we remove the bible and accept that we are looking for a Deist God, we get a different picture.

So, theists tend to use these arguments for the problem of evil, even with a Deist God and say that he is all good.

The mysterious card: God moves in mysterious ways and we cannot possibly understand his plan but we can trust in him that it will all be for the greater good.

The "character building" argument: If God made it so there was no evil in the world we could not value the good. This helps us grow and appreciate the goodness in the world. (Please elaborate on this for me).

The freewill argument: If there was no killing or suffering, we would not have freewill and would mindless robots. Elaborate on this, too, please.


So, this is VERY sound in the theists position and is completely reasonable to them. But lets flip this around.


The EVIL God hypothesis

There is an all powerful God that is actually very evil and wants to see us suffer. The problem with this is that there is good in the world, so why did not just torture us with a red hot pole?

Well, lets look into it.

Lets take the ideas that the Good God is put under.

Good:
New born babies for example. If God is so evil, why would he have these bundles of joy? Well, babies tend to die all the time, so maybe God put them here so we can suffer terribly if they die.

Why do some people have good lives? For example, a celebrity has millions of dollars, expensive cars, a big house, etc, etc. Some people will get angry at this, feel unappreciated, they might think they deserve it more than they do, etc. A kind of torture.

Why are we not born in terrible pain and agony? Well, we are born healthy to only have it slowly taken away from us. We see the inevitable death coming are way and we don't want to give up this great life we have, while if you were in pain, death would not be so bad.

Basically, take every theological argument for WHY there is good and evil in the world, and flip so it matches an evil God.

The same idea goes for the mystery card. Except the outcome is not supposed to be for the greater good, but its supposed to be bad, and in the end once you die, you will burn forever.

Now, the evil God hypothesis is ridiculous and holds NO merit at all. But at the same time, I am making the SAME arguments as the good God supporters are and there is insufficient proof for both. So let me ask, why do theists hold the good God higher than the evil God WHEN THEY ARE BOTH ON THE SAME SCALE OF PLAUSIBILITY. If the evil God hypothesis is implausible, then so is the good God hypothesis.


I got this idea from Stephen Law during his lecture at Oxford. I am not sure if I represented him perfectly, but I did my best.

Poke at this argument, see if there are fallacies, and more importantly, watch the lecture below!

Food for thought guys! Thanks for reading!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghANDfBcZmk
You get points for creativity. The problem as I see it though is this is an attempt to use logic and reasoning to argue with a theist. Since all but the intellectually honest theists tend to ignore logic and reasoning, your argument here will likely suffer the same fate. I can hear those theists now after you present your evil god idea saying "Oh now you're just being ridiculous!" and huffing and puffing away any real discussion.

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16-04-2014, 01:23 PM
RE: Attacking the God Hypothesis... in a different way.
(16-04-2014 11:35 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  The Bible says that God created evil. So yeah.

Sure, but that's the very definition of a trivial statement, isn't it? God created literally everything.

Tongue

Problem there being, evil is only ever coherently definable as an artifact of human perception. But that's another story.

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16-04-2014, 01:41 PM
RE: Attacking the God Hypothesis... in a different way.
(16-04-2014 01:23 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(16-04-2014 11:35 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  The Bible says that God created evil. So yeah.

Sure, but that's the very definition of a trivial statement, isn't it? God created literally everything.

Tongue

Problem there being, evil is only ever coherently definable as an artifact of human perception. But that's another story.

God created literally everything but God. He is, um, ah, eternal, er, um, uncaused. Yeah, that's it - uncaused. Yeah, that's the ticket. Dodgy

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16-04-2014, 10:12 PM
RE: Attacking the God Hypothesis... in a different way.
A theist would argue that God had to create moral evils to make us feel responsible and build up our moral ground.

As for natural "evils", that would be form the laws of nature.

The problem is that they are taking powers away from God and might even resort to "he works in mysterious ways but it will be for the greater good.

You can take all these theodicies and flip to fit an evil God.


Theists say that there is a good God because of all the good and beauty, but we could say there is an evil God because there is more evil than good. The beauty is there to make us realize what there COULD be in contract to evil. Almost like a tease.


NO evidence to prove either but WHY do they dismiss an evil God and accept the good God? Whether they laugh it off does not matter, they look bad from the outside by not attacking the argument.

“Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
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