Attacks On Science from the Far Left
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08-06-2017, 05:46 PM
RE: Attacks On Science from the Far Left
From what he wrote, I think our pal Omni thinks that being published in a peer-reviewed journal alone makes something part of the body of scientific knowledge... forgetting that the "review" part largely comes from follow-on papers which are free to say either "we tested this information and found its methodology and results to be accurate" or "this guy is full of shit and here's why". THAT's peer reviewed.

You can print individual journal articles that say almost anything, if you're willing to ignore the importance of the actual Scientific Method's peer review and the all important buildup of consensus-- you can write a paper, but if you can't convince others against all testing and skepticism, it's useless.

But I'd like to reiterate what Unfogged said... I'm a little pissed off to read someone making such vague arguments about supposed attacks against science, especially when they're trying to blame "the left".

That said, I don't doubt there are plenty of authoritarian leftists who'd attack a scientist who made a discovery that did not fit with their favored paradigm-- say, for instance, if it was discovered that women are less intelligent than men (I am not saying this is the case, only giving the first example that came to mind). I remember hearing Susan Brownmiller speak out, when I was an undergrad, against a pair of (MALE!!) scientists who had merely suggested that there may be a genetic propensity in some men to become a rapist, which may have been favored by Natural Selection and be a heritable behavioral characteristic. She spoke out against it as though they were "excusing" such behavior, when of course they were doing nothing of the sort.

So I'll just drop this here:

[Image: 3b100be8686b7b898b6e63fb5e9eb022.jpg]

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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08-06-2017, 05:47 PM
RE: Attacks On Science from the Far Left
(08-06-2017 05:38 PM)OmniConsUme Wrote:  
(08-06-2017 05:33 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I redacted the post above because it included a somewhat snarky comment about posts asking others to do the work of investigating.... seeing the follow-up posts...

What sort of response do you really expect to vague claims of some unknown scientist saying something unspecified about some sort of "attack" from the left followed up by more vague references to having read articles somewhere about something? No links... No context....

42.




Ignore it, I just realized I probably shouldn;t post like this is notepad, I will back this up with facts later, but

http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/conc...r-studies/
did you know this, the reason no one decided to not publish this is apparently there is about a thousand like this that isn't supposed to be a joke.

You realize that article is about a "journal" called Cogent Social Sciences, not about an actual scientific journal, right?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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08-06-2017, 05:53 PM
RE: Attacks On Science from the Far Left
(08-06-2017 05:47 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(08-06-2017 05:38 PM)OmniConsUme Wrote:  Ignore it, I just realized I probably shouldn;t post like this is notepad, I will back this up with facts later, but

http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/conc...r-studies/
did you know this, the reason no one decided to not publish this is apparently there is about a thousand like this that isn't supposed to be a joke.

You realize that article is about a "journal" called Cogent Social Sciences, not about an actual scientific journal, right?

Found that the article actually linked to the Twitter Account I was using to find this shit, I do not know about how much is it with real Journals
https://twitter.com/@RealPeerReview
but thank you about these may be in fake journals too.
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08-06-2017, 05:57 PM
RE: Attacks On Science from the Far Left
(08-06-2017 05:53 PM)OmniConsUme Wrote:  
(08-06-2017 05:47 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You realize that article is about a "journal" called Cogent Social Sciences, not about an actual scientific journal, right?

Found that the article actually linked to the Twitter Account I was using to find this shit, I do not know about how much is it with real Journals
https://twitter.com/@RealPeerReview
but thank you about these may be in fake journals too.
Scientific American, National Geographic, and the like, aren't scientific journals, they lack the required rigour.
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08-06-2017, 06:00 PM
RE: Attacks On Science from the Far Left
They're a problem that has only recently emerged: pay-to-publish, "open access" journals. They are very different from regular, highly-regulated scientific journals (that is, ones with actual credibility). A recent example of such a problem came from the pay-to-publish "journal" called Advances in Anthropology, where a Russian white supremacist published a bullshit paper that suggested white humans did not originate in Africa... a paper which was immediately picked up and run among hyper-conservative websites:

http://conservative-headlines.com/2012/0...ica-claim/

[Edit: In case it isn't obvious, the above story is utter horse shit, and was immediately debunked and heavily criticized by legitimate scientists.]

There have been a few experiments run, a few years back, which showed problems with the screening process for even the more reputable journals, but that resulted in quick repair of the systems in question. And again, a paper that is published which contains bullshit will be called out for its bullshit, or will not be cited by other scientists as the basis for any useful work, which amounts to the same thing.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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08-06-2017, 06:10 PM
RE: Attacks On Science from the Far Left
(08-06-2017 05:46 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  From what he wrote, I think our pal Omni thinks that being published in a peer-reviewed journal alone makes something part of the body of scientific knowledge... forgetting that the "review" part largely comes from follow-on papers which are free to say either "we tested this information and found its methodology and results to be accurate" or "this guy is full of shit and here's why". THAT's peer reviewed.

You can print individual journal articles that say almost anything, if you're willing to ignore the importance of the actual Scientific Method's peer review and the all important buildup of consensus-- you can write a paper, but if you can't convince others against all testing and skepticism, it's useless.

But I'd like to reiterate what Unfogged said... I'm a little pissed off to read someone making such vague arguments about supposed attacks against science, especially when they're trying to blame "the left".

That said, I don't doubt there are plenty of authoritarian leftists who'd attack a scientist who made a discovery that did not fit with their favored paradigm-- say, for instance, if it was discovered that women are less intelligent than men (I am not saying this is the case, only giving the first example that came to mind). I remember hearing Susan Brownmiller speak out, when I was an undergrad, against a pair of (MALE!!) scientists who had merely suggested that there may be a genetic propensity in some men to become a rapist, which may have been favored by Natural Selection and be a heritable behavioral characteristic. She spoke out against it as though they were "excusing" such behavior, when of course they were doing nothing of the sort.

So I'll just drop this here:

[Image: 3b100be8686b7b898b6e63fb5e9eb022.jpg]

There's a faction of the a academic far left that objects to any study that they can interpret as not lending itself to what they already believe.

Take the reaction to Charles Murray for example.

It's almost completely off limits to even consider if there might be a racial component to intelligence.

I'm not always pro-science myself, either. For example, I don't think physicists should have dropped hydrogen bombs on the Bikini Atoll to study the effect it would have on the coral reef.

That's an extreme example but as we advance deeper into genetic engineering and AI we would be wise to remember that science doesn't excuse us from ethics.
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08-06-2017, 07:33 PM
RE: Attacks On Science from the Far Left
(08-06-2017 06:10 PM)ImFred Wrote:  There's a faction of the a academic far left that objects to any study that they can interpret as not lending itself to what they already believe.
And there's a faction of the academic far right that does the same thing.

I always blink when I see a suggestion that all of academia consists of those from the "far left".
It might even be true of most of contemporary academia; I don't know. But it's certainly not universal.

I did my undergrad work at an extremely conservative science and engineering college. We had every flavor of ROTC there was, and a good third of the student body was involved with them. I saw a group of socialist speakers -- not communists, just socialists -- get physically run off from the "free speech" area of the student union. My 2nd year mechanical engineering prof ran for city mayor on the conservative -- not republican; conservative -- party ticket.

Academia contains both liberals and conservatives. Nearly all of them are very bright. A handful are outright geniuses. Most of them are reasonable people. Some are douchebags. And a few, pretty much everywhere, are outright wing-nuts.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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08-06-2017, 08:22 PM
RE: Attacks On Science from the Far Left
(08-06-2017 06:10 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
(08-06-2017 05:46 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  From what he wrote, I think our pal Omni thinks that being published in a peer-reviewed journal alone makes something part of the body of scientific knowledge... forgetting that the "review" part largely comes from follow-on papers which are free to say either "we tested this information and found its methodology and results to be accurate" or "this guy is full of shit and here's why". THAT's peer reviewed.

You can print individual journal articles that say almost anything, if you're willing to ignore the importance of the actual Scientific Method's peer review and the all important buildup of consensus-- you can write a paper, but if you can't convince others against all testing and skepticism, it's useless.

But I'd like to reiterate what Unfogged said... I'm a little pissed off to read someone making such vague arguments about supposed attacks against science, especially when they're trying to blame "the left".

That said, I don't doubt there are plenty of authoritarian leftists who'd attack a scientist who made a discovery that did not fit with their favored paradigm-- say, for instance, if it was discovered that women are less intelligent than men (I am not saying this is the case, only giving the first example that came to mind). I remember hearing Susan Brownmiller speak out, when I was an undergrad, against a pair of (MALE!!) scientists who had merely suggested that there may be a genetic propensity in some men to become a rapist, which may have been favored by Natural Selection and be a heritable behavioral characteristic. She spoke out against it as though they were "excusing" such behavior, when of course they were doing nothing of the sort.

So I'll just drop this here:

[Image: 3b100be8686b7b898b6e63fb5e9eb022.jpg]

There's a faction of the a academic far left that objects to any study that they can interpret as not lending itself to what they already believe.

Take the reaction to Charles Murray for example.

It's almost completely off limits to even consider if there might be a racial component to intelligence.

I'm not always pro-science myself, either. For example, I don't think physicists should have dropped hydrogen bombs on the Bikini Atoll to study the effect it would have on the coral reef.

That's an extreme example but as we advance deeper into genetic engineering and AI we would be wise to remember that science doesn't excuse us from ethics.

Bombs being exploded on Bikini Atoll were a political decision made during war time; the gov paid physicists to get the things to work, not to drop them. Not many physicists flew planes or set up test stands for bomb detonation.
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08-06-2017, 08:52 PM
RE: Attacks On Science from the Far Left
Quote:gov paid physicists to get the things to work

Those physicists deserve to be raped with a broken glass dildo.
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08-06-2017, 08:53 PM
RE: Attacks On Science from the Far Left
(08-06-2017 07:33 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(08-06-2017 06:10 PM)ImFred Wrote:  There's a faction of the a academic far left that objects to any study that they can interpret as not lending itself to what they already believe.
And there's a faction of the academic far right that does the same thing.

I always blink when I see a suggestion that all of academia consists of those from the "far left".
It might even be true of most of contemporary academia; I don't know. But it's certainly not universal.

I did my undergrad work at an extremely conservative science and engineering college. We had every flavor of ROTC there was, and a good third of the student body was involved with them. I saw a group of socialist speakers -- not communists, just socialists -- get physically run off from the "free speech" area of the student union. My 2nd year mechanical engineering prof ran for city mayor on the conservative -- not republican; conservative -- party ticket.

Academia contains both liberals and conservatives. Nearly all of them are very bright. A handful are outright geniuses. Most of them are reasonable people. Some are douchebags. And a few, pretty much everywhere, are outright wing-nuts.

Quite right. Both my parents are professors (though dad only teaches one night class, two days a week), and both are ULTRA-conservative. I attended a service Academy (USAFA) and two Louisiana universities... to my knowledge, I have never had a liberal professor, with one exception: a history professor whose poor interpretation of certain events led me to being ejected from her classroom when I objected, with facts presented to support my case (and show that her interpretation was one-sided). I also clashed with a Women's Studies professor whose class I was sitting in on with my (then) girlfriend, after she cited some biological concepts that were not supported by modern science (I was a biology major, at the time), and I piped up to point it out. So two interactions in all of college with "leftist" professors, both highly negative. Some of my professors, especially in physics and in history, were outspoken conservatives... but the latter group (history) listened politely to my objections, and invited me to write papers on the facts I felt supported my case, in every instance, and gave me good grades for my work. All positive interactions, even if I found some of their ideas repulsive-- and likely, vice-versa.

And yet, because I am myself an outspoken liberal who often would correct (usually by referencing Snopes) friends/family when they regurgitate "Alternative Facts" they pick up from Faux News or Rush Limbaugh, I am endlessly accused of being "corrupted", or some version of that idea, by "liberal college professors". I find the accusation both irritating and hilarious.

From what I've seen, I think the general spread of liberal vs. conservative among professors is roughly 3/4ths liberal... though that number changes and even reverses, depending on the field. Engineers and math professors, for instance, tend to be overwhelmingly conservative.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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