Attn: theists. What would it take to prove you wrong?
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04-08-2013, 08:36 AM
RE: Attn: theists. What would it take to prove you wrong?
(04-08-2013 07:44 AM)eksyte Wrote:  
(02-08-2013 08:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nope. There is nothing. They would just say they have misunderstood Jebus, and his holy birdy.




This guy explains the majority of the problem in one sentence: Theists are not seeking the truth, they are seeking a method to justify their beliefs. Their goal with "debates" is not to sift through the facts to find the best answer, their goal is to trapeze the sinkholes of logic to make it seem as if their stance is the correct one.

Agree. It's called "sophistry". Pulling rabbits out of hats. Craig is not interested in "correct" anything. He's interested in his career. Craig is a high-paid apologist, and the darling of Christian fundies. I bet if someone got him drunk, and he thought no one was recording what he said he would agree, at least some of his garbage is worse than "mental gymnastics". One of his areas of "work", are the cognitive dissonances that arise in Physics with respect to (space)time and his deity. He is well aware of the problems. He's been writing about them for 20 years. But he's very very well paid to pretend. He can't afford to stop the gymnastics act at this point. His "shtick" is down to a well-rehearsed set of lines. His audiences are usually fundies, and fairly "beginner" types settings. The only thing I've seen recently where he actually addressed some serious people who could (and did) tell him he's full of crap, was a cosmological conference he attended in Scotland (I think). I watched his address from that. He contradicted himself badly, and (as usual), said his god was "special", so he didn't have to meet any criteria that Logic might require.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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05-08-2013, 03:49 PM
RE: Attn: theists. What would it take to prove you wrong?
Hmmm, that's actually a tough one.

Since my evidence isn't empirical, there is no way empirical evidence could "prove me wrong".

I suppose the only way would be for a non-Christian god to come visit me and tell that he is god and prove it... so... I would be going from one religion to another.

Consider

I just realized something. It is literally impossible for me to move from Christianity to atheism. The move from one to another is incompatible based on the required evidence for that move.

Wow. Never thought about this.

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05-08-2013, 04:04 PM
RE: Attn: theists. What would it take to prove you wrong?
(05-08-2013 03:49 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Hmmm, that's actually a tough one.

Since my evidence isn't empirical, there is no way empirical evidence could "prove me wrong".

I suppose the only way would be for a non-Christian god to come visit me and tell that he is god and prove it... so... I would be going from one religion to another.

Consider

I just realized something. It is literally impossible for me to move from Christianity to atheism. The move from one to another is incompatible based on the required evidence for that move.

Wow. Never thought about this.

No, the tools you would use are skepticism and reason. Your internal 'evidence' is not actually strong enough to withstand the use of true critical thinking.

You just think it is. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-08-2013, 04:11 PM
RE: Attn: theists. What would it take to prove you wrong?
Don't Pounce just yet, Chas. I think the first step is in recognizing the impossible standards set up in thinking this way. He's acknowledging that there is no criteria that could ever be met that would make him make the switch. And if that thought lingers in his mind long enough, maybe it can get him to assess the value he places on empirical knowledge, on which the rest of his life and daily experiences are based.

Religious but open minded about the arguments of atheists? You may have spent your whole life learning about the arguments for religion. May I present to you 10 segmented hours for the case against it?
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05-08-2013, 04:14 PM
RE: Attn: theists. What would it take to prove you wrong?
(05-08-2013 04:11 PM)Golbez Wrote:  Don't Pounce just yet, Chas. I think the first step is in recognizing the impossible standards set up in thinking this way. He's acknowledging that there is no criteria that could ever be met that would make him make the switch. And if that thought lingers in his mind long enough, maybe it can get him to assess the value he places on empirical knowledge, on which the rest of his life and daily experiences are based.

Oh, don't worry about KC - he saw me comin' a mile away. Big Grin

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-08-2013, 04:20 PM
RE: Attn: theists. What would it take to prove you wrong?
(05-08-2013 04:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-08-2013 04:11 PM)Golbez Wrote:  Don't Pounce just yet, Chas. I think the first step is in recognizing the impossible standards set up in thinking this way. He's acknowledging that there is no criteria that could ever be met that would make him make the switch. And if that thought lingers in his mind long enough, maybe it can get him to assess the value he places on empirical knowledge, on which the rest of his life and daily experiences are based.

Oh, don't worry about KC - he saw me comin' a mile away. Big Grin

lol yeah.

And, I've already considered all those things.

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05-08-2013, 04:27 PM
RE: Attn: theists. What would it take to prove you wrong?
(05-08-2013 04:20 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(05-08-2013 04:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  Oh, don't worry about KC - he saw me comin' a mile away. Big Grin

lol yeah.

And, I've already considered all those things.

Yeah, just not enough. Take Hitchens into your heart ...

Your experiences are not unique. Beating addiction, turning one's life around, becoming a better person, can and do occur without any gods.

Happened for me.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-08-2013, 04:30 PM
RE: Attn: theists. What would it take to prove you wrong?
Anyway, I'll expound.

It's impossible because my Christianity is founded on the premise of faith. It is simply not compatible with empirical evidence.

So, if further empirical evidence is presented contrary to the belief system, logically speaking, that evidence cannot be used since it does not affect anecdotal evidence and faith.

This is actually a very rational and logical approach to it.

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05-08-2013, 04:32 PM
RE: Attn: theists. What would it take to prove you wrong?
(05-08-2013 04:30 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Anyway, I'll expound.

It's impossible because my Christianity is founded on the premise of faith. It is simply not compatible with empirical evidence.

So, if further empirical evidence is presented contrary to the belief system, logically speaking, that evidence cannot be used since it does not affect anecdotal evidence and faith.

This is actually a very rational and logical approach to it.

In what way is that not special pleading? Listen man, you know I don't care one way or another what you believe but don't try to claim it's rational to ignore all evidence to the contrary.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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05-08-2013, 04:33 PM
RE: Attn: theists. What would it take to prove you wrong?
(05-08-2013 04:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-08-2013 04:20 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  lol yeah.

And, I've already considered all those things.

Yeah, just not enough. Take Hitchens into your heart ...

Your experiences are not unique. Beating addiction, turning one's life around, becoming a better person, can and do occur without any gods.

Happened for me.

Not saying it is.

It just is for me. I had no desire to do any of those things. When I was regenerated, instantly everything changed.

(I feel like we've run this circle before Consider )

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