Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
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01-06-2014, 04:58 PM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(01-06-2014 11:53 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Thanks for posting that, Mark.

What the film doesn't convey is the analysis which Atwill sets out in his book. The film just takes the conclusion Atwill reaches.

That's because it isn't really a documentary. It's marketing.
And as such, I've seen worse.

Thanks for your analysis / opinion DB, it was an interesting read.
I'd like to comment on one small part:
Quote:His book shows several sets of "coincidences" in the NT and he calculates the likelihood of them occurring accidentally in works written by writers independently of each other. What are the chances of four novelists all writing stories about a man called Harry Potter, for instance, and his life story just happens to follow the same path as a real person, say, Lincoln. Went to the same places, did similar things, in the same sequence. That is what his book is about.

Fan fiction FTW

Big Grin

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01-06-2014, 06:21 PM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(01-06-2014 01:29 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  "Kant’s... focus is on the role sacred history can play in awakening and establishing rational faith. When using faith in the prototype as an example, Kant makes clear that one can legitimately be awakened to the prototype of reason by a purported historical manifestation of the prototype (e.g., Jesus of Nazareth). According to Kant, whether one is awakened to the prototype by reason or by history, both means of awakening can set one on the path of pure moral faith. The question is not one of the means of awakening, but of what is seen as the rational ground of faith. ..." http://www.academia.edu/194732/Kant_on_t...n_Religion
...

And I reckon that this where Kant ballsed it up.

Buddhism has some good stuff.
Over in this neck of the woods, there are essentially two Buddhisty types... those that are atheistic (with no external god(s)) and apply reason and those that buy the little shiny idols.

Islam has some good stuff.
Over in this neck of the woods, there are essentially two Islamy types... those that are some of the most reasonable peeps you'll ever meet and those that piss in your soup for doodling a pic of Mo on your paper napkin.

"purported historical manifestation[s] of the prototype" lead to idolatry and fanaticism.

The particular irony with Buddhism, Islam and indeed Christianity is that all have the anti-idolatry ideal in their founding documents.

Those that follow the unthinking, easy idolatry path rarely do so from a basis of reason and nor is reason awakened in them.

Drinking Beverage

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01-06-2014, 06:22 PM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
Dodgy Fucking black hebrew israelites.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
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01-06-2014, 06:48 PM (This post was last modified: 01-06-2014 07:26 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(01-06-2014 01:29 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  The point is that Christianity is, in my opinion, a vehicle for delivering a reason based religion, as opposed to, and in order to supplant, paganism.

That may be what you see it is, but it's no more "reason based" than anything else. Scholars today no longer use the word "paganism". It assumes a presupposed hierarchy of deities, and is a judgmental term. The fact is, one god is as good as another. Christianity developed organically out of Jewish apocalypticism, (the members of the Way sub-sect of Jews .. ie Christians, WERE (also) Jews for decades, if not centuries). Same deity, (Yahweh), same moral system. You're introducing an artificial distinction where there is none.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-06-2014, 06:48 PM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(01-06-2014 01:29 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(01-06-2014 12:54 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  It's nitpicking, but Kantianism doesn't really have anything to do with the gold rule. The categorical imperative is a duty obligate moral system where by what is 'right' is given preference over what is 'good'. The golden rule is "do unto others as you would want done unto yourself". In the bible:


The Kantian categorical imperative and the 'golden rule' are not the same thing. A classic example, and one presented to Kant during his lifetime, what if someone was hiding from a murderer in your home, and the murderer approached your door and asked you if his would-be victim was inside. A proper interpretation of the golden rule would be to lie to the murder, because you would want someone to lie to your would-be murderer where you in that situation. Kant believes you should always tell the truth regardless of the consequences.

http://www.academia.edu/2006209/Kant_and..._and_Nazis


The point is that Christianity is, in my opinion, a vehicle for delivering a reason based religion, as opposed to, and in order to supplant, paganism. Kant upholds the dictates of moral reason to be the core of what is required of human beings. How one formulates that rule may vary but the concept is the same.

For instance:

"Kant’s... focus is on the role sacred history can play in awakening and establishing rational faith. When using faith in the prototype as an example, Kant makes clear that one can legitimately be awakened to the prototype of reason by a purported historical manifestation of the prototype (e.g., Jesus of Nazareth). According to Kant, whether one is awakened to the prototype by reason or by history, both means of awakening can set one on the path of pure moral faith. The question is not one of the means of awakening, but of what is seen as the rational ground of faith. If the empirical manifestation is believed to be a revelation of some (dormant?) truth already embedded in reason(viz., the truth of human depravity and our need for divinely initiated moral renewal), then, for Kant, there is no rift between this faith and the faith of reason—both look to the same rational truth for hope." http://www.academia.edu/194732/Kant_on_t...n_Religion

The categorical imperative is: Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law.
Which is a formal expression of the golden rule, "do unto other as you would have others do unto you". The test of whether you are acting on something which you would want to be universally applied is whether you would want it to apply to you. I can't see any difference. One commentator has described them thus: "Kant's Categorical Imperative is so strikingly similar to the “Golden Rule” that the two may even be morally equivalent." http://phiml.hubpages.com/hub/Kants-Cate...olden-Rule

The difference between the two is obvious. Kantianistic morality is strictly rigid and only considers the actions of the moral actor and not the consequences of such actions. The golden rule considers the recipient of a moral action first above the moral actor; ie something is morally permissible if the person on the receiving end feels it is moral and fair.

The axe-murder scenario I presented before is a good example of that. As a Kantian you would only consider the positive act of lying, and no the negative consequence of the murder. The kantian philosophy relies on the ideal of everyone adhering to the same rules in order to insure a desirable outcome; ie the actions of the murder are not your responsibility, only the act of lying or telling the truth. The Golden Rules is more flexible than that; it is usually true that the consequences of your actions are more important than the action themselves.
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01-06-2014, 07:21 PM
Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(01-06-2014 06:38 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  the video, if it leads you to the conclusion that Jesus never existed, is not something I would be sharing with others. it just makes you look like a gullible atheist who wants to have his demonstrably incorrect beliefs confirmed.

So does every tired repeatedly dispelled claim you make on this board.

Why don't you head back to the Christian forum and keep getting your ass kicked there.

(01-06-2014 06:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(01-06-2014 05:59 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  You literally defended rape and slavery in the bible as being moral. Neither one is.

The entire forum has better morality than you do, AntiChrist.

none of those things are moral to you. some here may agree.

At least they don't know you think rape and slavery are moral, yet.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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01-06-2014, 08:34 PM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(01-06-2014 06:38 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  the video, if it leads you to the conclusion that Jesus never existed, is not something I would be sharing with others. it just makes you look like a gullible atheist who wants to have his demonstrably incorrect beliefs confirmed.

You didn't watch the video, did you, you ignorant loud mouth.
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01-06-2014, 08:49 PM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
If by "excellent" you mean "crap made up by a crank", then sure. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-06-2014, 04:39 AM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(01-06-2014 06:22 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Dodgy Fucking black hebrew israelites.

You're doing what now? o.O

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02-06-2014, 10:32 PM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(01-06-2014 08:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  If by "excellent" you mean "crap made up by a crank", then sure. Drinking Beverage

Have you read the book?

Have you watched the video?
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