Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
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04-06-2014, 05:39 PM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(04-06-2014 03:45 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 04:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is supposition and twisting of facts, unsupported by hard evidence. In short, a conspiracy theory.

It falls short of ralphellis-level absurdity, but it doesn't come within hailing distance of credible.

Many religions have been started, and we know how some of them came about.
There is nothing special about Christianity.

Which facts have been twisted?

Have you read the book?

Have you watched the video?

I watched thew video. I am sorry that you have fallen for this crackpot shit.

Maybe you'll come to your senses and possibly do something useful.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-06-2014, 09:07 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 09:12 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(04-06-2014 05:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 03:45 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Which facts have been twisted?

Have you read the book?

Have you watched the video?

I watched thew video. I am sorry that you have fallen for this crackpot shit.

Maybe you'll come to your senses and possibly do something useful.

You may be right.

Yet I'm entitled to an opinion, just as you are.

Not sure why you think I'm not doing anything useful. We all learn when history is discussed. I'd like you to join in the discussion by contributing your knowledge rather than just repeatedly heaping shit on Atwill.
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04-06-2014, 09:39 PM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(03-06-2014 08:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 02:25 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Re..."They were trying to make the case that the jesus story is related to pagan myths. Its seemed to me to be a very weak case."

Maybe. Here's my spiel on this with some good links...

In the first four centuries CE, there was a huge trade network from Europe all the way to China. Goods were not the only commodities traded; philosophies, traditions and manuscripts were shared amongst the world’s people. Rome absorbed the gods of the provinces it conquered. By the end of the first century, there were so many foreign gods that almost every day of the year celebrated some divinity. Roman citizens were encouraged to give offerings to these gods to maintain the “Pax Deorum” (the peace of the gods.) These cults, including Christianity, vied with their contemporaries for supremacy, and borrowed ideas from each other. Gods who became men, sons of gods, births to virgin mothers on or near the 25th of December, baptisms, miracles, healings, deaths due to hanging on trees or crucifixion, risings from the dead, and belief being the basis for salvation, were all traditional themes. (http://freetruth.50webs.org/B1a.htm). Here are some examples.

Krishna, the central character of an Indian myth dating back to 1400 BCE, had his birth signaled by a star in the East and attended by angels and shepherds. His father was a carpenter. A tyrant slaughtered thousands of innocent infants to get the baby. Krishna survived and grew up to raise the dead and heal lepers, the deaf and the blind. He was killed around age 30 and the sun darkened. He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, and became the second person of a trinity. Christianity has repeatedly failed to make any headway in India. One of the reasons is that many Indians have recognized it as an imitation of their own traditions. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jckr1.htm).

Buddhist monks travelled to Egypt, Greece and Asia Minor four centuries before Jesus. Buddha, traditionally said to have lived c 600 BCE, was born to the virgin Maya. A king threatened the baby’s life. He was baptized in water, taught in a temple at age 12, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a small basket, walked on water and taught the parable of the prodigal son. His followers were obliged to take vows of poverty and to renounce the world, sex and family. (http://jdstone.org/cr/files/j_buddah.html).

Dionysis of Greece was born in a manger to a virgin on 25th December, performed miracles, turned water into wine, was eaten in a Eucharistic ritual, and in one version of events rose from the dead on March 25th.

Stories about Osiris of Egypt predate Christ by thousands of years. His birth was announced by 3 wise men. He was called the resurrection and the life and the Good Shepherd. He suffered, died and rose again. His flesh was eaten as wheat cakes. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa2.htm).

He had a son called Horus, (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm) whose birth was announced by a star in the east and attended by 3 wise men. He was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on the 25th December in a cave. At age 12 he was a teacher in a temple, then disappeared for 18 years, returned into circulation and was baptized at age 30. He had 12 disciples, exorcised demons, raised men from the dead, walked on water, delivered a sermon on the mount, was crucified between two thieves, and was buried for 3 days before he was resurrected from the dead.

There were many others, including Adduk and Marduk of Assyria, Adonis, Aesclepius, Apollo, Hercules and Zeus of Greece, Alcides of Thebes, Hermes of Greece/Egypt, Issa of Arabia, Jupiter of Rome and Serapis of Egypt who had striking similarities to the Christian mythology.

Jesus had to be distinguished from these other gods, so the church fathers (and John’s Gospel) made a big deal out of how he came “in the flesh.” They then derided other gods as mythical.

It’s obvious that what became the Christian faith was a heady, plagiarized mix of Judaic, Mithraic, and other pagan myths. The existence of all these characters, sharing so many characteristics, constitutes an ancient universal mythos that’s been hidden from everyday Christians.

References:
Atwill, Joseph “Caesar’s Messiah”
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/Mithraism.html
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen048.html
http://www.crystalinks.com/mithraism.html
http://mlkkpp01.stanford.edu/index.php/k...mber_1949/
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm
http://www.tyndalearchive.com/scriptures...mithra.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development...ible_canon
http://www.innvista.com/culture/religion...mithra.htm
http://www.christianity-revealed.com/cr/...anity.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/historic...istianity/
http://armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/The-Mi...53794).htm
http://www.hiddencodes.com/sherry/churches.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U1Grl4HSRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb1IfFMoIZQ
http://www.egodeath.com/bensonmysteryrels.htm
http://department.monm.edu/classics/cour...ropattern/
http://fuzzyquark.comxa.com/original.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljRKhZ81aqY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lGG1fgSkl4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJk_nBNqejg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gELzYupzXs

Oh, conspiracy theorists supporting conspiracy theorists. Ohmy What a surprise. Drinking Beverage

from Wikipedia...

"A conspiracy theory is an explanatory proposition that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an illegal or harmful event or situation.[1][2][3]

Some scholars suggest that people formulate conspiracy theories to explain, for example, power relations in social groups and the existence of evil forces.[4][5][6][7] It has been suggested by some thinkers that conspiracy theories have chiefly psychological or socio-political origins. Proposed psychological origins include projection; the personal need to explain “a significant event [with] a significant cause;" and the product of various kinds and stages of thought disorder, such as paranoid disposition, ranging in severity to diagnosable mental illnesses. Similarly, socio-political origins may be discovered in the need of people to believe in event causation rather than suffer the insecurity of a random world and universe.[8][9][10][11][12][13]

The effects of a world view that places conspiracy theories centrally in the unfolding of history have been debated, with some saying that it has become “the dominant paradigm of political action in the public mind." Although the term "conspiracy theory" has acquired a derogatory meaning over time and is often used to dismiss or ridicule beliefs in conspiracies[disambiguation needed] including ones that turn out to be real, it has also continued to be used by some to refer to actual, proven conspiracies, such as U.S. President Richard Nixon and his aides conspiring to cover up Watergate."

Yes...this is a conspiracy theory. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not true.
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04-06-2014, 10:37 PM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
I don't want to speak for Chas but when he said "conspiracy theory" I think he meant it less in the dictionary sense and more in the pejorative sense. More the kinda of conspiracy theory thinking of " taking disparate and often unrelated facts and weaving a narrative that is not entirely justified" sense.

I'm not weighing in on the debate for or against anyone that's just how I took it and I'm sure Chas will correct me if I'm wrong.
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05-06-2014, 02:07 AM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(04-06-2014 10:37 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  I don't want to speak for Chas but when he said "conspiracy theory" I think he meant it less in the dictionary sense and more in the pejorative sense. More the kinda of conspiracy theory thinking of " taking disparate and often unrelated facts and weaving a narrative that is not entirely justified" sense.

I'm not weighing in on the debate for or against anyone that's just how I took it and I'm sure Chas will correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm sure that's what he meant too. Hopefully he'll address some specifics as to why he thinks Atwill's theory is bogus. It's impossible to debate the issue with him if he doesn't.
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05-06-2014, 03:23 AM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(04-06-2014 09:07 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 05:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  I watched thew video. I am sorry that you have fallen for this crackpot shit.

Maybe you'll come to your senses and possibly do something useful.

You may be right.

Yet I'm entitled to an opinion, just as you are.

Not sure why you think I'm not doing anything useful. We all learn when history is discussed. I'd like you to join in the discussion by contributing your knowledge rather than just repeatedly heaping shit on Atwill.

I am adding to the discussion by pointing out that the discussion is based on crap.

You may as well discuss why aliens built the pyramids.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-06-2014, 03:25 AM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(05-06-2014 02:07 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 10:37 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  I don't want to speak for Chas but when he said "conspiracy theory" I think he meant it less in the dictionary sense and more in the pejorative sense. More the kinda of conspiracy theory thinking of " taking disparate and often unrelated facts and weaving a narrative that is not entirely justified" sense.

I'm not weighing in on the debate for or against anyone that's just how I took it and I'm sure Chas will correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm sure that's what he meant too. Hopefully he'll address some specifics as to why he thinks Atwill's theory is bogus. It's impossible to debate the issue with him if he doesn't.

I have already made the point: You have supposition and you do not have evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-06-2014, 03:42 AM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(05-06-2014 03:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-06-2014 02:07 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'm sure that's what he meant too. Hopefully he'll address some specifics as to why he thinks Atwill's theory is bogus. It's impossible to debate the issue with him if he doesn't.

I have already made the point: You have supposition and you do not have evidence.

supposition |ˌsʌpəˈzɪʃ(ə)n|
noun
a belief held without proof or certain knowledge; an assumption or hypothesis:

Yes...the theory is supposition. If there was definitive evidence it would be fact. What's your problem with that? Have you never discussed JFK's murder? The big bang theory? How WW1 started?

You're just making noise. You haven't contributed anything to the discussion. And I know you're smart, so you should do better than this. Demonstrate you actually know something about these ancient times or fuck off.
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05-06-2014, 04:29 AM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(05-06-2014 03:42 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(05-06-2014 03:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  I have already made the point: You have supposition and you do not have evidence.

supposition |ˌsʌpəˈzɪʃ(ə)n|
noun
a belief held without proof or certain knowledge; an assumption or hypothesis:

Yes...the theory is supposition. If there was definitive evidence it would be fact. What's your problem with that? Have you never discussed JFK's murder? The big bang theory? How WW1 started?

You're just making noise. You haven't contributed anything to the discussion. And I know you're smart, so you should do better than this. Demonstrate you actually know something about these ancient times or fuck off.

I know enough to recognize bullshit when I see it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-06-2014, 05:37 AM
RE: Atwill Documentary...excellent stuff
(05-06-2014 04:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-06-2014 03:42 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  supposition |ˌsʌpəˈzɪʃ(ə)n|
noun
a belief held without proof or certain knowledge; an assumption or hypothesis:

Yes...the theory is supposition. If there was definitive evidence it would be fact. What's your problem with that? Have you never discussed JFK's murder? The big bang theory? How WW1 started?

You're just making noise. You haven't contributed anything to the discussion. And I know you're smart, so you should do better than this. Demonstrate you actually know something about these ancient times or fuck off.

I know enough to recognize bullshit when I see it.

Chas, this is the thinking atheist forum.

We're here to think and learn from each other.

I want to learn from you. I value your opinion. I actually read what you write.

But you've said the same thing over and over in every post, and haven't contributed more than one useful piece of information. You've not negated or commented on a whole world of information I've shared with you. That devalues my efforts and spoils a good conversation.

By the way, I don't have an overwhelming need to be right. I do, however, want to learn, especially from smart people.

Let's put our egos in our back pockets. I would love your opinion on the following podcast from someone who (probably) knows nothing about Atwill...
http://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/the_...roved.html

Does it not add a little credibility to Atwill's theory?
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