Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
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19-12-2016, 12:22 PM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(19-12-2016 05:24 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  People who write using multi-colored fonts don't actually want to be read. Tongue

And thus were the Romans driven out, after they had possessed themselves of the second wall. Whereupon the fighting men that were in the city were lifted up in their minds, and were elevated upon this their good success, and began to think that the Romans would never venture to come into the city any more; and that if they kept within it themselves, they should not be any more conquered. For God had blinded their minds for the transgressions they had been guilty of, nor could they see how much greater forces the Romans had than those that were now expelled, no more than they could discern how a famine was creeping upon them; for hitherto they had fed themselves out of the public miseries, and drank the blood of the city…”
– Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book V, 8:2

But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.”
– John 12:37-41
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20-12-2016, 06:18 PM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(19-12-2016 12:22 PM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 05:24 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  People who write using multi-colored fonts don't actually want to be read. Tongue

And thus were the Romans driven out, after they had possessed themselves of the second wall. Whereupon the fighting men that were in the city were lifted up in their minds, and were elevated upon this their good success, and began to think that the Romans would never venture to come into the city any more; and that if they kept within it themselves, they should not be any more conquered. For God had blinded their minds for the transgressions they had been guilty of, nor could they see how much greater forces the Romans had than those that were now expelled, no more than they could discern how a famine was creeping upon them; for hitherto they had fed themselves out of the public miseries, and drank the blood of the city…”
– Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book V, 8:2

But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.”
– John 12:37-41

I would appreciate you explaining why these 2 quotes are related. Thanks.
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28-12-2016, 06:34 AM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(20-12-2016 06:18 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I would appreciate you explaining why these 2 quotes are related. Thanks.

Well, for starters, they both very well expressed the idea I wanted to get across, that God had blinded that guy's mind, nor could he see, nor could he discern. But about the parallel, since they both contain references to God blinding the people's eyes, that right there is a pretty big coincidence. You can argue about why any god would intentionally blind someone, but it is not very often that he gets accused of blinding people. I mean, if we were looking for a parallel between this NT passage and Josephus, we would want to start with this one. To strengthen the parallel, we find in the very same passage a description of some of the miracles that the Romans had done, getting through the second wall, but the people still didn't believe because they "began to think that the Romans would never venture to come into the city" even though Titus had shown them the mighty arm of the Lord through his vehement assaults. That is why this is parallel number 236 in my book, titled "The Unbelief of the People" and is why I place this here as relevant and expressing my feeling, since, although I had done many miracles of showing people here the origins of the Gospels, yet did they not believe so that I could heal them and they could be saved. Because, remember, it is indeed the truth which shall set you free.
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28-12-2016, 06:55 AM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 06:34 AM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  You can argue about why any god would intentionally blind someone, but it is not very often that he gets accused of blinding people.

a non sequitur
Before you argue anything about the gods, you first have to demonstrate they exist.
You haven't.

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28-12-2016, 10:14 AM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 06:55 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  a non sequitur
Before you argue anything about the gods, you first have to demonstrate they exist.
You haven't.

You won't be hearing any arguments in favor of gods from me. I don't believe in anything supernatural like that, in fact I think I am attacking Christianity. If you had read any of my posts including this one any more carefully I think that would be abundantly obvious. Instead it seems you just like to jump on threads and glance at a few words and think you got the gist of it and throw some not carefully thought out snarky smart-ass comment to sound smart and completely miss the whole point of the discussion. More than a little annoying, I must say, I really expected better from an atheist forum, maybe I just have too high expectations for humans, a conclusion I am forced to far too frequently.
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28-12-2016, 10:21 AM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2016 10:41 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 10:14 AM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  
(28-12-2016 06:55 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  a non sequitur
Before you argue anything about the gods, you first have to demonstrate they exist.
You haven't.

You won't be hearing any arguments in favor of gods from me. I don't believe in anything supernatural like that, in fact I think I am attacking Christianity. If you had read any of my posts including this one any more carefully I think that would be abundantly obvious. Instead it seems you just like to jump on threads and glance at a few words and think you got the gist of it and throw some not carefully thought out snarky smart-ass comment to sound smart and completely miss the whole point of the discussion. More than a little annoying, I must say, I really expected better from an atheist forum, maybe I just have too high expectations for humans, a conclusion I am forced to far too frequently.

You write very poorly. Very poorly. You keep assuming I haven't read your posts. I have. You come off as a pompous idiot who thinks he can tell us what we should do :

Quote:"I mean, if we were looking for a parallel between this NT passage and Josephus, we would want to start with this one"

Quote:That is why this is parallel number 236 in my book, titled "The Unbelief of the People" and is why I place this here as relevant and expressing my feeling, since, although I had done many miracles of showing people here the origins of the Gospels, yet did they not believe so that I could heal them and they could be saved. Because, remember, it is indeed the truth which shall set you free.

You do miracles ?

Facepalm

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28-12-2016, 10:46 AM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 10:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You write very poorly. Very poorly.

Sorry, 'bout that. I wasn't allowed to go to school and was basically locked in a room and severely beaten by Mormons and only allowed to read the Bible and the Book of Mormon until I was 14. But I did manage to get a PhD in astrophysics, so what I lack in writing skills, I think I make up for in math, programming and science skills. I never intended, actually, to become a writer.

(28-12-2016 10:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You keep assuming I haven't read your posts. I have.

Somehow, you just really seem to be missing the whole point, somehow you think I believe in some kind of god?

(28-12-2016 10:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You come off as a pompous idiot who thinks he can tell us what we should do :
Quote:I mean, if we were looking for a parallel between this NT passage and Josephus, we would want to start with this one"

Sorry for being presumptive, that was my best guess. If you were looking for a parallel to that passage from John in the works of Josephus to demonstrate that the Gospels are a satire of a genocide where would you begin? Would you start with the passage about Cannibal Mary?

(28-12-2016 10:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You do miracles ?

Facepalm

Obviously that was an exaggeration, but I have shown you about 10 or 12 new Gospel/Josephus parallels all demonstrating the satirical nature of Gospel stories including "Jesus Walks on Water", "The Last Supper", "The Star of Bethlehem" and more and I can show you hundreds more including the satirical origins of "Jesus Turns Water into Wine" and when he "healed the blind" and demonstrate that the gospels were originally intended as a satire of the works of Josephus, based entirely or almost entirely on them. It is true, that is no supernatural miracle, but I think pretty incredible. Yet ye believe not on me, but I believe the day will come when you will be convinced, the truth can't hide forever and there is nothing which is covered which shall not be uncovered and there is nothing hidden which shall not be found.
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28-12-2016, 11:02 AM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2016 11:07 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 10:46 AM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  
(28-12-2016 10:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You write very poorly. Very poorly.

Sorry, 'bout that. I wasn't allowed to go to school and was basically locked in a room and severely beaten by Mormons and only allowed to read the Bible and the Book of Mormon until I was 14. But I did manage to get a PhD in astrophysics, so what I lack in writing skills, I think I make up for in math, programming and science skills. I never intended, actually, to become a writer.

(28-12-2016 10:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You keep assuming I haven't read your posts. I have.

Somehow, you just really seem to be missing the whole point, somehow you think I believe in some kind of god?

(28-12-2016 10:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You come off as a pompous idiot who thinks he can tell us what we should do :

Sorry for being presumptive, that was my best guess. If you were looking for a parallel to that passage from John in the works of Josephus to demonstrate that the Gospels are a satire of a genocide where would you begin? Would you start with the passage about Cannibal Mary?

(28-12-2016 10:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You do miracles ?

Facepalm

Obviously that was an exaggeration, but I have shown you about 10 or 12 new Gospel/Josephus parallels all demonstrating the satirical nature of Gospel stories including "Jesus Walks on Water", "The Last Supper", "The Star of Bethlehem" and more and I can show you hundreds more including the satirical origins of "Jesus Turns Water into Wine" and when he "healed the blind" and demonstrate that the gospels were originally intended as a satire of the works of Josephus, based entirely or almost entirely on them. It is true, that is no supernatural miracle, but I think pretty incredible. Yet ye believe not on me, but I believe the day will come when you will be convinced, the truth can't hide forever and there is nothing which is covered which shall not be uncovered and there is nothing hidden which shall not be found.

Ah yes. Aren't we special, though. How utterly typical of You-Tube/internet nut cases, and professional "dot-connectors".
You have an expertise on one area, and you think that grants you expertise in another area. It doesn't. It's called the "argument from authority fallacy". Each of the gospels are very different from the other, as ANY scholar knows. You are not a Biblical Scholar, or an historian. There is no scholar in the entire world that agrees with this "satire" crap. You're just this weeks lunatic that stops by here with their own pet "Bible code" bullshit or other. OMG. Facepalm

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28-12-2016, 11:06 AM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 11:02 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Each of the gospels are very different from the other, ...

Each of the gospels is ...

Sorry, Buckster, I can't help it. Weeping

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-12-2016, 11:26 AM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 11:02 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Each of the gospels are very different from the other, as ANY scholar knows.

I agree. John's humor is rather blunt and obvious, like John 21:25:
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.”

The book of John contains many jokes that seem to imply that Josephus' writings were really long and boring (a criticism I happen to agree with). I already showed you an example of that in "Jesus Finds Philip":
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...lip-satire

The book of Matthew, on the other hand, I think has much more elegant humor but also pretty nihilistic and even gruesome. Like when Jesus threatens to send out the reapers to harvest the earth and then it really happens one generation after the supposed time of Jesus' ministry in his second coming and the end of the world for the Jews.

(28-12-2016 11:02 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  How utterly typical of You-Tube/internet nut cases, and professional "dot-connectors".
You have an expertise on one area, and you think that grants you expertise in another area. It doesn't. It's called the "argument from authority fallacy". You are not a Biblical Scholar, or an historian. There is no scholar in the entire world that agrees with this "satire" crap. You're just this weeks lunatic that stops by here with their own pet "Bible code" bullshit or other. OMG. Facepalm

A couple years ago I would have said the same thing. I know it sounds pretty outrageous, sometimes I can still hardly believe it. But this is what I came here to talk and discuss about, the nature of the Gospels and not to have a rational discussion about whether or not god exists (in that case I would have gone to "The Thinking Agnostic" forum or something else). I wanted to go somewhere where I could discuss rationally, not impaired by a belief in god or christianity. You can dismiss me with prejudice as a "Bible code bullshit peddler" or you can address the argument more closely like, I dunno, a "Thinking Atheist" and we can have a discussion. If it is the first option, then I guess you have done what you came to do. If it is the second then tell me what exactly is wrong with the parallels I have presented or why it could not be a satire. Because to me each Gospel is pretty hilarious, in its own way, if you have already read Josephus, who is hilarious to read by himself. Have you read any of the works of Josephus? I highly recommend it, especially the Wars of the Jews.
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