Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
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28-12-2016, 11:48 AM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2016 12:05 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 11:26 AM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  
(28-12-2016 11:02 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Each of the gospels are very different from the other, as ANY scholar knows.

I agree. John's humor is rather blunt and obvious, like John 21:25:
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.”

The book of John contains many jokes that seem to imply that Josephus' writings were really long and boring (a criticism I happen to agree with). I already showed you an example of that in "Jesus Finds Philip":
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...lip-satire

The book of Matthew, on the other hand, I think has much more elegant humor but also pretty nihilistic and even gruesome. Like when Jesus threatens to send out the reapers to harvest the earth and then it really happens one generation after the supposed time of Jesus' ministry in his second coming and the end of the world for the Jews.

(28-12-2016 11:02 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  How utterly typical of You-Tube/internet nut cases, and professional "dot-connectors".
You have an expertise on one area, and you think that grants you expertise in another area. It doesn't. It's called the "argument from authority fallacy". You are not a Biblical Scholar, or an historian. There is no scholar in the entire world that agrees with this "satire" crap. You're just this weeks lunatic that stops by here with their own pet "Bible code" bullshit or other. OMG. Facepalm

A couple years ago I would have said the same thing. I know it sounds pretty outrageous, sometimes I can still hardly believe it. But this is what I came here to talk and discuss about, the nature of the Gospels and not to have a rational discussion about whether or not god exists (in that case I would have gone to "The Thinking Agnostic" forum or something else). I wanted to go somewhere where I could discuss rationally, not impaired by a belief in god or christianity. You can dismiss me with prejudice as a "Bible code bullshit peddler" or you can address the argument more closely like, I dunno, a "Thinking Atheist" and we can have a discussion. If it is the first option, then I guess you have done what you came to do. If it is the second then tell me what exactly is wrong with the parallels I have presented or why it could not be a satire. Because to me each Gospel is pretty hilarious, in its own way, if you have already read Josephus, who is hilarious to read by himself. Have you read any of the works of Josephus? I highly recommend it, especially the Wars of the Jews.

I've read all of Josephus. I'm not buying your fool book.
There is not one scholar in the entire world that buys this nonsense.
Of course you are VERY VERY special dear. You just happened to notice something everyone else in the whole world missed. Be sure the nurse knows where you are, it's almost pill time. Someone else can waste their time with the wacko nut-case of the week.
http://muut.com/i/caesars-messiah/genera...ore-than-j
I assume this is you. How about you prove that "much of Josephus is allegory".

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28-12-2016, 12:22 PM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 11:26 AM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  ...tell me what exactly is wrong with the parallels I have presented or why it could not be a satire. Because to me each Gospel is pretty hilarious, in its own way, ...

To me, the Gospels don't seem "hilarious" at all, except in the same unintentional way as the rest of the Bible. It has never occurred to me that they were in any way satire, and nothing you have said convinces me to change my mind. I think you're really stretching here. John, as well as the other three, was writing "so that you may believe". He said so, and I take him at his word. He was not aiming for laughs.
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28-12-2016, 12:26 PM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 11:48 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I've read all of Josephus. I'm not buying your fool book.

Fair enough. Then if you do not want to discuss the excerpts that I am posting here then I guess you are done here, right?

(28-12-2016 11:48 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is not one scholar in the entire world that buys this nonsense.

I know. Relativity was considered crazy until it became crazy to doubt it. Someone has to be the first. But I am not the first. Many people have noticed parallels to the Gospels before me, most scholars agree that at least some of the Gospels have literary inspiration from the works of Josephus, although for most of the history of Christianity, holding such a belief could have been enough to get you killed. The only thing I am suggesting is that there is much more literary dependence than anyone has cared to admit. Like when Jesus asks Simon and John to prepare the last supper in the "upper rooms" a house next to a man with a pitcher of water and then you read in Josephus how the rebels Simon and John prepare the famine by burning all the food and they "had done it on purpose to serve the Romans", which "consumes" the Jews by whole houses in the "upper rooms" next to a statue with cisterns to catch the rain water. At some point you have to admit that Josephus and the gospels tell the exact same stories, again and again. 480 times.


(28-12-2016 11:48 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Of course you are VERY VERY special dear. You just happened to notice something everyone else in the whole world missed.

If I am "special" maybe I am just good at appreciating satire, have a pretty dark sense of humor and grew up with only King James English. How is it crazy to propose that there is more textual dependence between Josephus and the gospels than previously accepted. Because most scholars already accept that there is some, although it took a thousand years for western society to allow ourselves to admit that.

(28-12-2016 11:48 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  http://muut.com/i/caesars-messiah/genera...ore-than-j
I assume this is you. How about you prove that "much of Josephus is allegory".

That is not me.
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28-12-2016, 12:49 PM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 12:26 PM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  I know. Relativity was considered crazy until it became crazy to doubt it. Someone has to be the first. But I am not the first. Many people have noticed parallels to the Gospels before me, most scholars agree that at least some of the Gospels have literary inspiration from the works of Josephus, although for most of the history of Christianity, holding such a belief could have been enough to get you killed.

References required.
Than let's hear about what qualifications you have that support anything you say as credible.

Quote:The only thing I am suggesting is that there is much more literary dependence than anyone has cared to admit. Like when Jesus asks Simon and John to prepare the last supper in the "upper rooms" a house next to a man with a pitcher of water and then you read in Josephus how the rebels Simon and John prepare the famine by burning all the food and they "had done it on purpose to serve the Romans", which "consumes" the Jews by whole houses in the "upper rooms" next to a statue with cisterns to catch the rain water. At some point you have to admit that Josephus and the gospels tell the exact same stories, again and again. 480 times.

More imaginary dot connecting. The fact they use similar words proves nothing. I have to admit nothing.

Quote:Because most scholars already accept that there is some, although it took a thousand years for western society to allow ourselves to admit that.

Prove it. Let's see a list of scholars that discuss this, then prove it's "most". Let's see your poll.

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28-12-2016, 02:06 PM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 12:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-12-2016 12:26 PM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  I know. Relativity was considered crazy until it became crazy to doubt it. Someone has to be the first. But I am not the first. Many people have noticed parallels to the Gospels before me, most scholars agree that at least some of the Gospels have literary inspiration from the works of Josephus, although for most of the history of Christianity, holding such a belief could have been enough to get you killed.

References required.
Than let's hear about what qualifications you have that support anything you say as credible.

Ok. For starters how about William Whiston, who translated Josephus into English in 1737. In his translation notes for Wars of the Jews he marveled at "those distinct and plain predictions of Jesus of Nazareth, in the Gospels thereto relating, as compared with their exact completions in Josephus's history". Even he recognized the parallels and he was a Christian apologist, as it would appear. Now you may be inclined to think that this was the literal fulfilment of biblical prophecy, I don't know, but considering that the Gospels are mostly believed to have been written around 80-90 AD with significant changes going into the second century and Wars of the Jews was published 75 AD, I am more inclined to think that the Gospels got their story from Josephus. That seems like a much more likely explanation than fulfilment of biblical prophecy, wouldn't you agree?

I am kind of out of time right now, but I will post more references for that later.
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28-12-2016, 02:12 PM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 02:06 PM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  
(28-12-2016 12:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  References required.
Than let's hear about what qualifications you have that support anything you say as credible.

Ok. For starters how about William Whiston, who translated Josephus into English in 1737. In his translation notes for Wars of the Jews he marveled at "those distinct and plain predictions of Jesus of Nazareth, in the Gospels thereto relating, as compared with their exact completions in Josephus's history". Even he recognized the parallels and he was a Christian apologist, as it would appear. Now you may be inclined to think that this was the literal fulfilment of biblical prophecy, I don't know, but considering that the Gospels are mostly believed to have been written around 80-90 AD with significant changes going into the second century and Wars of the Jews was published 75 AD, I am more inclined to think that the Gospels got their story from Josephus. That seems like a much more likely explanation than fulfilment of biblical prophecy, wouldn't you agree?

I am kind of out of time right now, but I will post more references for that later.

We know the gospels "got their story" from Q. You said "most" scholars.
I want an extensive current list of well-known names, and proof of your claim.

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28-12-2016, 06:38 PM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
Q is the jesus freak equivalent of the tachyon.

Quote:A tachyon /ˈtæki.ɒn/ or tachyonic particle is a hypothetical particle that always moves faster than light. Most physicists believe that faster-than-light particles cannot exist because they are not consistent with the known laws of physics.

Like Q, the tachyon has never been seen, detected, or measured.

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02-01-2017, 11:00 AM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2017 11:52 AM by fhqwhgads.)
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 02:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  We know the gospels "got their story" from Q. You said "most" scholars.
I want an extensive current list of well-known names, and proof of your claim.

I am surprised you don't like Whiston who translated Josephus and placed notes all the way through marking his own parallels to the Gospels. And he was even a Christian apologist.

There is also Eusebius from long before that:
“If anyone compares the words of our savior with the other accounts of the historian (Josephus) concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Savior were truly divine and marvelously strange.” (Church History, Book III, Chapter VII.)

If you listen to Eusebius, then either you conclude that Jesus knew the future (with his "prophecies" written down after they were fulfilled in the destruction of Israel) or you conclude that the Gospels take story elements from Josephus.


But if you don't like old sources, here are some more modern ones:

-Steve Mason, "Josephus and Luke-Acts," Josephus and the New Testament (1992)
-Max Krenkel, "Josephus und Lukas" (1894)
-Heinz Schreckenberg, "Flavius Josephus und die lukanischen Schriften," (1980)
-Gregory Sterling, "Historiography and Self-Definition: Josephos, Luke-Acts and Apologetic Historiography" (1992)

They give long list of parallels between Josephus and Luke/Acts with those references above here:
https://infidels.org/library/modern/rich...hus.html#3

Even bible.org has an article analysing "Josephus’ Contribution to New Testament Backgrounds":
https://bible.org/article/josephus%E2%80...-testament

That of course makes a lot of sense, since the Gospels are mostly believed to have been written after the destruction of Galilee and Judea, so the best place to get any information on Israel before its destruction would obviously be the extensive works of Josephus, which are even today just about the only sources we have for Israel and the events leading up to its destruction. So it is no surprise he is believed to be a source for topics like Herod, Archelaus, Tiberius, locations, descriptions of buildings and even language, etc., even by Bible.org. Especially when you realize that the Wars of the Jews is the only history that was allowed to be written about Jesus' second coming:

“And Jesus went out… to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said… There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world. And Jesus answered and said… ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars… Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you… and then shall the end come… (whoso readeth, let him understandSmile Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains… For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be… Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”
– Matthew 24:1-34

Jesus clearly said the end of the world and his second coming would happen within one generation of his "first coming" and the temple will be destroyed and everyone in Judea had better flee into the mountains. And we know that happened about 40 years (standard Jewish definition of a generation) after Jesus' ministry. The Wars of the Jews is the record of Jesus' second coming.

So, we can conclude that scholarship, both secular and Christian apologetic, in general has reached the conclusion that there is at least some amount of inspiration or storyline or influence of the works of Josephus on the Gospels, how much precisely is hotly debated. So I hope that answers your question. What I am arguing is not far away from what standard biblical scholarship has been saying since millennia in that sense, just more of the same, that there is much more textual dependence and parallels between them than previously recognized.

But ultimately these are all calls to authority, with the assumption being you should trust these scholars that there are a great number of similarities between Josephus and the NT which can only be explained by God giving post factum "prophecies" or plagiarism. But you don't need to trust anyone, you can know it very easily yourself by looking at the evidence.

One great example which has been known for a long time is Zacharias the son of Baruch from Josephus (JW 4,5,4) and Zacharias son of Barachias of Matthew 23 who were both slain in the temple near the alter. Sometimes only the names get altered a bit.

Josephus was a hellenized Jew who was in favor of peace with the Romans, just like Jesus. Josephus wandered all over Galilee and Judea telling everyone about Rome "the kingdom with God's favor" just as Jesus told them about the kingdom of God. Jesus ministered in Galilee and Josephus administered as a general in the war in Galilee. Jesus was "the only son begotten of the Father" and Josephus was the only son of the deified emperor who was gotten by the father, Vespasian in the siege of Jotapata (as opposed to his two biological sons begotten of the mother). Josephus was constantly cursing the Greek writers and the rebellious Jews just as Jesus was cursing the "scribes" and Pharisees. Josephus is constantly warning everyone that they will all be slaughtered by the Romans if they do not surrender and "repent" of their seditions while Jesus is telling them to repent of their sins or God will send the "reapers" to "harvest the earth". I demonstrate very detailed parallels between almost every miracle and almost every parable to a very similar event in Josephus. And I can literally show you hundreds of detailed parallels. Seriously, choose any passage from the Gospels or the book of Revelation and there is about an 80% chance I can show you almost the very same story happening in the works of Josephus, frequently even with the same or similar names of characters and locations.

I am even able to explain little bits of the Gospels that never made any kind of theological or historical sense before (like why "Mary hath chosen the good part and it shall not be taken away" Luke 10:38-42 and "Jesus had his face set to go to Jerusalem" Luke 9:51-56) in terns of a satire of a passage in Josephus and I can explain some disagreements between the Gospels as just different ways to satirize the same passage in Josephus (like the Samaritan/Canaanite woman). I can explain the mysterious "Messianic Secret" (when Jesus does a miracle and tells them to "see thou tell no man") as being when you have a parallel to a passage where something shameful happens to a Roman, and what I call an "anti-Messianic secret" (when Jesus does a miracle and then tells them to tell everyone, shout it from the roof tops) as being when you have a parallel to a passage in Josephus where something shameful happens to a Jew, so tell everyone! Only Matthew and Luke do "anti-messianic secrets", Mark seems more simplistic and doesn't seem to distinguish between the two kinds of shame and only has the "messianic secret" which agrees well with the well established "Marcan priority". When you have the right key, everything just falls into place and makes perfect sense. The right key here is that the Gospels are a Greek satire of the works of Josephus.
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02-01-2017, 05:35 PM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2017 05:39 PM by fhqwhgads.)
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(28-12-2016 06:38 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Q is the jesus freak equivalent of the tachyon.
Like Q, the tachyon has never been seen, detected, or measured.

Finding Q is nothing like finding a tachyon. If you detected a tachyon that would mean it interacted with some matter in your detector, depositing energy on it. If tachyons exist and can interact with normal matter, every time they interact they would lose energy, slowing them down. The theory of Relativity says that matter cannot be accelerated past the speed of light, or anyway it would take an infinite amount of energy to do so, and that doesn't matter if you are coming from below and accelerate past c (the speed of light) or above c and decelerating below. So if a tachyon is traveling faster than c and depositing energy on normal matter, it would never decelerate below c and would have an infinite amount of energy to deposit on the universe. Tachyons are a crazy, wild, far out hypothesis that have no indication that they even could/should exist and could possibly break the universe and physics if they did. Q is believed to at least have existed, it is pretty well accepted that the gospel authors drew from 2, 3 or 4 sources (see "Streeter's hypothesis") and very many scholars believe that Josephus is one of those sources as I showed above. And discovering Q would at most break Christianity, leaving the rest of the universe intact, so finding Q is nothing like finding tachyons, that is the worst analogy I have heard all year.
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02-01-2017, 08:07 PM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
Until someone finds evidence of their existence they are both made up pieces of bullshit.

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