Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
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02-01-2017, 11:00 PM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(02-01-2017 11:00 AM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  There is also Eusebius from long before that:
“If anyone compares the words of our savior with the other accounts of the historian (Josephus) concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Savior were truly divine and marvelously strange.” (Church History, Book III, Chapter VII.)

If you listen to Eusebius, then either you conclude that Jesus knew the future (with his "prophecies" written down after they were fulfilled in the destruction of Israel) or you conclude that the Gospels take story elements from Josephus.

I don't listen to Eusebius.

Bishop Eusebius, the official propagandist for Constantine, entitles the 32nd Chapter of his 12th Book of Evangelical Preparation:
"How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived."

"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."
Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2

He's a famous liar.

You have no evidence where any "common elements" came from, or who took what from where.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-01-2017, 12:34 AM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(02-01-2017 08:07 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Until someone finds evidence of their existence they are both made up pieces of bullshit.

I am showing you the evidence right now that Josephus is the source for the Gospels and I showed you the evidence that people have known about since since almost two thousand years. Pay attention.
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03-01-2017, 02:43 PM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(02-01-2017 11:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I don't listen to Eusebius.

Bishop Eusebius, the official propagandist for Constantine, entitles the 32nd Chapter of his 12th Book of Evangelical Preparation:
"How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived."

"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."
Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2

He's a famous liar.

Yes, of course he was. Everyone knows that. But you should remember why he was lying. He was making an apology as to why the Gospels mirrored Josephus so much by claiming that they were prophecies which were fulfilled, forgetting the fact that those "prophecies" were written after the publication of Wars of the Jews in 75AD.

But just because you don't like the more ancient Christian apologist scholars is no reason to ignore all the more modern non-apologetic ones I showed you:


(02-01-2017 11:00 AM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  But if you don't like old sources, here are some more modern ones:

-Steve Mason, "Josephus and Luke-Acts," Josephus and the New Testament (1992)
-Max Krenkel, "Josephus und Lukas" (1894)
-Heinz Schreckenberg, "Flavius Josephus und die lukanischen Schriften," (1980)
-Gregory Sterling, "Historiography and Self-Definition: Josephos, Luke-Acts and Apologetic Historiography" (1992)

They give long list of parallels between Josephus and Luke/Acts with those references above here:
https://infidels.org/library/modern/rich...hus.html#3

Even bible.org has an article analysing "Josephus’ Contribution to New Testament Backgrounds":
https://bible.org/article/josephus%E2%80...-testament

One great example which has been known for a long time is Zacharias the son of Baruch from Josephus (JW 4,5,4) and Zacharias son of Barachias of Matthew 23 who were both slain in the temple near the alter. Sometimes only the names get altered a bit.

Josephus was a hellenized Jew who was in favor of peace with the Romans, just like Jesus. Josephus wandered all over Galilee and Judea telling everyone about Rome "the kingdom with God's favor" just as Jesus told them about the kingdom of God. Jesus ministered in Galilee and Josephus administered as a general in the war in Galilee. Jesus was "the only son begotten of the Father" and Josephus was the only son of the deified emperor who was gotten by the father, Vespasian in the siege of Jotapata (as opposed to his two biological sons begotten of the mother). Josephus was constantly cursing the Greek writers and the rebellious Jews just as Jesus was cursing the "scribes" and Pharisees. Josephus is constantly warning everyone that they will all be slaughtered by the Romans if they do not surrender and "repent" of their seditions while Jesus is telling them to repent of their sins or God will send the "reapers" to "harvest the earth". I demonstrate very detailed parallels between almost every miracle and almost every parable to a very similar event in Josephus. And I can literally show you hundreds of detailed parallels. Seriously, choose any passage from the Gospels or the book of Revelation and there is about an 80% chance I can show you almost the very same story happening in the works of Josephus, frequently even with the same or similar names of characters and locations.




(02-01-2017 11:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You have no evidence where any "common elements" came from, or who took what from where.


Yes, I absolutely do have proof that the gospels are based on Josephus and I have shown you 9 examples where the NT texts are based on Josephus, exactly mirroring single passages from Josephus:

1) This thread about the "cost of building a tower", "failing to finish", "the coming on of a war" and "abandoning your relations to be a follower of Jesus {Josephus}" has far too many common plot points to be just a coincidence and since the Gospels were written after Josephus, the Gospels must be the one taking it from Josephus and not the other way around.

2) In the thread "Samaritans Reject Jesus":
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...sus-satire
"Jesus {Vespasian} looked like he was going to go to Jerusalem", "the people would not receive Jesus {Vespasian}", "the disciples {those who were for peace with the Romans} want to kill Jews to please Jesus {Vespasian}", but "Jesus {Vespasian} insists he is come to save the people, not destroy them". These two passages are the same exact story. They have far too many common plot points to be just a coincidence and since the Gospels were written after Josephus, the Gospels must be the one taking it from Josephus and not the other way around.

3) The Parable of the Patches and Wineskins:
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ins-satire
"The disciples of John {the rebels who were under John} came over to Jesus {the Romans} and were pretty hungry fasting a lot {a famine}", "Jesus {Josephus} tells us that his followers {the Romans} are like guests at a wedding {have too great abundance}" and "Jesus {Josephus, on the side of the Romans} tells them that if you overfill old wine bottles {hungry Jews} they burst open". These are the same story and have far too many common plot points to be just a coincidence and since the Gospels were written after Josephus, the Gospels must be the one taking from Josephus.

4) Jesus Walks on Water
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ter-satire
"Jesus {Vespasian} constrained his disciples including Simon to into a ship and cross over to the other side of the sea {tied up some rebels lead by Simon and threw them in the sea" but "they walked on the water {Josephus says the sea would bear up the heaviest burdens}" and "there was a boisterous/contrary wind {Josephus says it was as if there was a wind that forced them up} but the wind stopped at soon as they got back in the boat and they thought they saw a spirit". These are the same story and have far too many common plot points to be just a coincidence and since the Gospels were written after Josephus, the Gospels must be the one taking from Josephus.

5) Fearing God Alone
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...one-satire
"Those who want to come over to Josephus/the Romans {Jesus} are in danger of being killed, but they should do it anyway because it's the right thing to do", "the Romans put someone over the Jews to distinguish them so they can be sold {and Jesus knows the number of hairs on your head and won't forget you}" and "the Romans are selling the people they capture into slavery {and Jesus is talking about selling sparrows}" and "the people are sold at a very low price {but Jesus tells us not to worry and assures us that we are much more value than a couple of sparrows}". The NT version is a very ironic short summary of the passage in Josephus and these have far too many common plot points to be just a coincidence and since the Gospels were written after Josephus and are a satire of Josephus, the Gospels must be the one taking from Josephus.

6) Jesus Anointed by Mary
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ary-satire
Luke tells us that "Mary treasured a lot of things in her heart {what she had treasured up that wasn't carried off by the rapacious guards}" and "the famine pierced her bowls {Simon says a sword will pierce her soul too}" and "the guards {shepherds} found she had roasted her son, eaten half and kept the other half concealed by her {found her son wrapped in cloth and lying in a feeding trough}", "all who heard it were amazed" and "this infant was supposed to be a sign to the world", "suddenly the heavenly {Roman} army appears", "praising God {Caesar excused himself by God}" and "saying peace on earth to those who enjoy his favor {Caesar had proposed peace and liberty to the Jews who enjoyed his flavor}" and then "Martha {the rebels} were worried about food and serving and were angry at Mary for not helping", "Mary hath chosen the good part {she had saved a fine portion for the rebel guards}" but "it won't be taken away from her {the rebels wanted to take her roasted son from her, but couldn't}"

“The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you {you will starve;}. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life {will be remembered forever;}; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever {have their story told forever and reenacted in church sacraments around the world;}.”
– John 6:52-58


7) Jesus Finds Philip
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...lip-satire
"Jesus {Josephus} spends the day walking through Galilee {writing a description of Galilee}" and then "finds Philip". This parallel is pretty simplistic, John's humor tends to be blunt like that, but has three common plots points "Jesus/Josephus", "spending a long time going through Galilee" and "finding Philip", so the parallel is pretty unlikely to be a coincidence, especially when the coincidence turns out to be a joke about Josephus' verbosity if you know the reference or if it "has been given to you to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God".

8) The Last Supper
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ast-Supper
"Jesus {Josephus} asks Simon and John to prepare the last supper {tells us that Simon and John prepared the way of the famine by burning the food and they did it on purpose to please the Romans}", he tells them it will be "in the upper rooms furnished and prepared {Josephus: in the upper rooms is where they starved to death, their furniture was complete}" and "next to man holding a pitcher of water {statues with cisterns to catch rain water}" and to tell him "their master had sent them {Josephus says the Romans had become masters of the wall}". If Jesus tells you to look for "the upper rooms" next to a guy holding a "pitcher of water" and they are furnished and ready and we find exactly that description in Josephus then it is pretty ironic that that is where Jesus will have his last supper and also be where many Jews will starve to death. That is called irony, it is a fundamental part of satire. The NT version is a very ironic short summary of the passage in Josephus and these have far too many common plot points to be just a coincidence and since the Gospels were written after Josephus and are a satire of Josephus, the Gospels must be the one taking from Josephus.

9) Jesus Heals Bartimaeus
And recently submitted:
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...Bartimaeus
"Josephus says that those that came after Timeus {NT: The son of Timaeus} made lots of contradictions and told lies in their histories {was blind}" so "Josephus cursed him and many other Greek writers {NT: Bartimaeus begs Jesus for forgiveness and many charged him to shut up} but Josephus doesn't stop and keeps on complaining about the horrible Greek writers {NT: Bartimaeus says sarcastically thou son of David (Jew) have mercy on me! so Jesus has mercy and heals him} and Josephus tells them that "Thucydides... seems to have written the exactest of histories in his day" {and immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus in the way} and we can now {sarcastically} see the Greek literary tradition so much more clearly, oh, thank you so much Josephus."

This is only 9 examples, in my book I have more than 400 more covering 80% of the passages in the Gospels an the book of Revelation. Ask me your favorite passage and there is a good chance I can show you the Josephus parallel to it that is also ironic. Or I can just find a few more of my personal favorites and post them.
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03-01-2017, 03:23 PM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
Quote:This is* only 9 examples, in my book I have more than 400 more covering 80% of the passages in the Gospels an the book of Revelation. .

* "These are"

How nice for you.

You've connected some imaginary dots, like all internet nuts.
You've proven nothing.

Quote:"has been given to you to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God"

If you had ever taken NT 101 you would know about the Messianic Secret.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-01-2017, 08:28 AM
RE: Atwill got this wrong: The Cost of Following Jesus
(03-01-2017 03:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
Quote:This is* only 9 examples, in my book I have more than 400 more covering 80% of the passages in the Gospels an the book of Revelation. .

* "These are"

How nice for you.

You've connected some imaginary dots, like all internet nuts.
You've proven nothing.

You keep stating that I have proven nothing, but you don't argue or point out that I have made any mistakes in my arguments, that my parallels are invalid or that the parallels I am showing you are not ironic. Instead you keep trying to attack a typo here or some tangential topic there and keep entirely missing the point. What are you, like 5 that you attack presentation and not the argument? Because if you are still at the "I'm rubber and you're glue" age then you should tell me, so that I can more carefully watch my language.

(03-01-2017 03:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
Quote:"has been given to you to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God"

If you had ever taken NT 101 you would know about the Messianic Secret.

If you had actually read my post, instead of searching for small grammar mistakes you can harp on, then you would know that I not only know about the Messianic Secret, I claim to have solved it. And that quote has nothing to do with the Messianic Secret, it seems you are the one who knows nothing about it. The Messianic Secret is when Jesus tells people not to tell others about the miracles he does. In my book I show that this happens in the synoptic gospels when you have a parallel to something shameful that happens to a Roman, like being taken alive in war, then Jesus says "see thou tell no man", because Josephus always tries to paint the Romans in a good light. I claim also to have solved what I call the "anti-Messianic Secret", when Jesus says tell everyone about this miracle I just did, because those correlate with parallels where something shameful happens to a Jew in the Wars of the Jews, then Jesus tells him to shout this shameful thing from the rooftops, tell everyone in the city. Because that is what Josephus always did, paint the Jews in a worse light. Pay attention and read carefully before you go on the attack!
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