Austria implements "burqa ban"
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08-10-2017, 02:12 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
I despise kid-indoctrination, but there's a downside to outlawing it too. Basically you are then saying that the government has the right to dictate what you shall teach to your kids. That is a level of power I'm not willing to grant to anyone. What happens when an unscrupulous politician gets hold of that idea and runs with it, and the precedent is already set? Shades of 1984, that's what. Parents *do* sincerely try to teach their kids the best for them, they're not actively *out* to give them a shitty life. Prohibiting them from teaching kids things they sincerely believe to be right... that to me is too far, way too far.

On the other hand... mandatory vaccination programs are a good thing. Other stuff being mandatory is pretty non-controversial. Maybe I'm just being a crazy far-left liberal.

Anyway, I think for myself, the approach I would rather take with all of these is carrot rather than stick. *Convince* people that some aspects of their culture need to change. Trying to force it carries too many connotations of the past, where cultures have been actively suppressed and denigrated.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-10-2017, 03:17 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(07-10-2017 03:50 PM)morondog Wrote:  In other words they're brown and they dress funny.

Ah that old Chestnut... Let's pretend this is racism, let's give Islamic fundies something to really get their teeth into.
Answer these questions please.. Do you think the wearing of the burqa helps Muslim women integrate into western societies?

Do you really think that this ban is about race? (Have they banned Chinese people from using Woks) Hobo

Do you believe that acts of Islamic terror on the streets of Europe are carried out by well integrated individuals?

Do you believe that there's such a thing as being too liberal?
Islam needs reformation, plain and simple.

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08-10-2017, 03:36 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(08-10-2017 03:17 AM)Thedemonbarber Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 03:50 PM)morondog Wrote:  In other words they're brown and they dress funny.

Ah that old Chestnut... Let's pretend this is racism, let's give Islamic fundies something to really get their teeth into.
Answer these questions please.. Do you think the wearing of the burqa helps Muslim women integrate into western societies?
Tell me why full integration including dress is necessary. But lest you accuse me of dodging the question, of course not, unless society is able to handle the terrible sight of people dressing differently without losing their shit.

Quote: Do you really think that this ban is about race? (Have they banned Chinese people from using Woks) Hobo
I absolutely do.

Quote:Do you believe that acts of Islamic terror on the streets of Europe are carried out by well integrated individuals?
No, but those who do carry out such acts are a small minority, and while high profile terrorists kill far less people than other things which should get more attention. Also as I said before I don't think this law will help with integration and I haven't seen any evidence from anyone who supports it that it will. Feel free to provide such.

Quote:Do you believe that there's such a thing as being too liberal?
Islam needs reformation, plain and simple.
Do you believe in human rights, in particular freedom of expression?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-10-2017, 04:12 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
Quote:Do you believe that acts of Islamic terror on the streets of Europe are carried out by well integrated individuals?

Its islamist not islamic, there is a fundamental difference. Since you ignore this fundamental difference its not surprising that you think religious garments have anything to do with terrorism.
The attacks werent carried out by *non integrated* persons who felt alienated or whatever *run of the mill* muslims. They were commited by people who think that there should be no separation between religion and politics, between church and state. They want to live in a state that is ruled by islam and Islam should rule the whole world, with force if needed.

How many of those islamist terror attacks were caused by muslims trying to hide their face behind...whatever?
How many of those attacks would have been prevented by something like a burka ban?
Right, none.

They key to the islamist terrorism (and that includes 9/11, etc. too) is not that these terrorists are trying to look different, but exactly the opposite. They look, talk and behave unsuspicious to us in order to get to their targets.. Facepalm

If you want to ID future islamic terrorists and single them out for investigation, then you dont have to ban islamic garments, but you have to make them mandatory. It was already tried and worked splendidly in singling out those persons from their host society. As far as i know they werent able to commit any further crimes after the dress code for them was *regulated*. However, the integration part completely failed afaik.

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08-10-2017, 06:52 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
I don't bother thinking much about "rights"

WTF are "rights"???

I once heard the following:

'What about women's rights?'

"Women's rights, men's lefts."

Rights, as an idea, is to me a strange concept. It seems there is no standard.

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08-10-2017, 07:54 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
My definition of a "right" is:

"An action/status that your society, in general, will allow you to freely take/have."

In other words, the only rights anyone has are those granted by those around them. There is no standard at all, just discussion of potential ideals.

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08-10-2017, 07:56 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
And if a person disagrees with that definition?

Humans are amusing.

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08-10-2017, 07:58 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
If they disagree, they can define it to mean whatever they like. We'd then have two types of "rights" we can discuss.

I've often found however that when someone tries to define it to be different to the above, it has little bearing on reality.

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08-10-2017, 07:59 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
Oh Rob. Please tell me you are not this naive.

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08-10-2017, 08:08 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(08-10-2017 07:59 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Oh Rob. Please tell me you are not this naive.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Before I've had people say things like, "Everyone has the right to..."

I find that a nonsense statement. What is the person saying? What can a right possibly be, if you are not free to exercise it? I think they are really saying is, "Everyone should have the right to..."

I define it in terms of the real ability to carry out your rights, rather than as some magical floating list of things that doesn't actually do anything.

Of course, the law is meant to grant certain rights in a country, and as long as most of the people who live there will respect and protect such a right, people will have it. But if they don't, then it's of no practical use.

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