Austria implements "burqa ban"
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09-10-2017, 04:09 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
There's pretty much no way of distinguishing between those women who genuinely choose to wear this garb, and those who have been so heavily indoctrinated that they just can't think any other way. So we can't exactly tell all such women that it's not really their choice, if there is no apparent evidence of duress.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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09-10-2017, 04:20 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(09-10-2017 04:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 03:55 AM)Thedemonbarber Wrote:  Already explained this...If women are being forced to wear the burqa we should be protecting those women, just as we protect women from domestic violence ( I know a lot of it is not reported) but laws are there in place.

But then you are subjugating the ones who choose to wear it willingly, which is kinda the antithesis of what you just said you wanted.


(09-10-2017 03:55 AM)Thedemonbarber Wrote:  If women 'choose' to wear it then I would question why. Why purposely put up an unnecessary barrier to integration? Why keep this vicious circle going? For the sake of modesty? or something else maybe???

Only if you apply that same level of scrutiny to all religions and none. Do you really want police questioning everyone wearing a yamakas about their devotion and beliefs? What about a Yankees hat? How do we know that they aren't just a Yankees fans because their parents were, or they just grew up in New York?

Do you really want the government dictating what is, and is not, acceptable devotion in such a way? If wearing the burqa or hijab is not causing harm to anyone else, same as a yamaka, then on what secular grounds do you have to target them specifically?

I think you can certainly argue in favor of some time and place restriction for full face coverings of all kinds (not just the Muslim ones), but a blanket ban I think is an overreach.

I would argue that not fully integrating with society does harm others as well as themselves. As I've said before If these families are putting up barriers then surely their children are learning the us and them mentality from an early age, and therefore being harmed.

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09-10-2017, 04:27 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
Just to add, banning the burqa alone will not solve all the problems of integration but it's a start. Governments now need to look at further ways of promoting integration, and not just walking away from it.

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09-10-2017, 04:36 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(09-10-2017 04:09 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  There's pretty much no way of distinguishing between those women who genuinely choose to wear this garb, and those who have been so heavily indoctrinated that they just can't think any other way. So we can't exactly tell all such women that it's not really their choice, if there is no apparent evidence of duress.

How do we know who the victims of domestic violence are?
They report it hopefully.
Agreed the indoctrination of children is unacceptable, that's another step governments can take to improve the situation.

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09-10-2017, 04:37 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(09-10-2017 04:20 AM)Thedemonbarber Wrote:  I would argue that not fully integrating with society does harm others as well as themselves. As I've said before If these families are putting up barriers then surely their children are learning the us and them mentality from an early age, and therefore being harmed.

Then you refocus on education, funding public schools, and eliminate home schooling. Make everyone get a public education, away from their parent's; but don't single out just one religion. Don't use a separate set of standards for Islam than you would Christians and Jews (or atheists for that matter).

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09-10-2017, 04:42 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
Also, 'full integration' is such an undefined and nebulous term as to be almost meaningless. Where is the line, what is the standard? What separates wearing a burqa and hijab from family restaurants serving lasagna in Little Italy?

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09-10-2017, 04:46 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(08-10-2017 05:28 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Being naked in public is frowned upon.

One can't escape dress codes.

That's a an absence of dress code.

And I'm against.
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09-10-2017, 04:48 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(09-10-2017 04:42 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Also, 'full integration' is such an undefined and nebulous term as to be almost meaningless. Where is the line, what is the standard? What separates wearing a burqa and hijab from family restaurants serving lasagna in Little Italy?

I'm not even going to hurt myself thinking up an answer to that.

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09-10-2017, 04:53 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(09-10-2017 04:42 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Also, 'full integration' is such an undefined and nebulous term as to be almost meaningless. Where is the line, what is the standard? What separates wearing a burqa and hijab from family restaurants serving lasagna in Little Italy?

As I read it, "Dress like us, think like us, don't come here from your shitty hell-hole you called a country before we bombed it, and maybe you'll be *allowed* to be a second-class citizen in our fine Western democratic society. Don't complain either, you uppity fucks, be grateful for the opportunities we grudgingly give you because we can't figure out a way to take them away without contravening our constitution which ironically and frustratingly was not written by a bunch of jerks".

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-10-2017, 05:16 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(09-10-2017 04:53 AM)morondog Wrote:  As I read it, "Dress like us, think like us, don't come here from your shitty hell-hole you called a country before we bombed it, and maybe you'll be *allowed* to be a second-class citizen in our fine Western democratic society. Don't complain either, you uppity fucks, be grateful for the opportunities we grudgingly give you because we can't figure out a way to take them away without contravening our constitution which ironically and frustratingly was not written by a bunch of jerks".

There are several issues that differ from the situation in the USA. First, our constitution, grants free exercise of religion. Islam is one of the officially recognized religions since 1912 (historical background - we just annexed Bosnia Herzegowina at that time, a majority muslim region - in the wake of the Balkan wars). So you can't single out any religion and make a law to discriminate against them. That, as I repeatedly said, would have been unconstitutional. So they used the broad brush, wink, wink, although everyone knows who's meant with this bill.

Secondly, the rationale behind it is to make identification easier with CCTV coverage and face recognition software. That chips away at everyone's right to privacy and the freedom of expression, since it also makes it easier to identify persons at a demonstration. Until now, we have a lot of tourism from rich Arabic countries, where wearing a burka is really an issue, as opposed to the muslims being either native or migrated here. Women wearing the burka where led into a seperate room at the airport and a female officer would verify their identity.

It's a save bet that this kind of tourism will dry out in the future, which is very bad news for certain communities in certain regions of the country. They virtually lived by this kind of tourism, since the Middle Easterners came outside the usual tourism seasons. I guess there will be quite a number of bankrupcies in the tourism sector.

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