Austria implements "burqa ban"
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03-10-2017, 07:01 PM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(03-10-2017 03:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 03:20 PM)morondog Wrote:  ... So... that's an oppressive regime regulating women's clothing... I oppose that. Same as I oppose any Western government doing the same.

The law applies to men, too. No one gets to cover his or her face in public.

But to be fair, I don't think there's a mass of guys in clown makeup going around.

I think this law's intent is at women. I really do believe this will cause more women to feel isolated and trapped in their homes. Instead of being around the influence of other people and especially women outside of their culture.


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03-10-2017, 07:02 PM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(03-10-2017 06:58 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 04:40 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Recently in Australia, we've had two males apprehended by police after the commission of a crime—both wearing burqas.

One bloke held up a convenience store for cigarettes at 2AM, and another held up a bank branch in broad daylight. The issue in both cases is that it's currently illegal for a member of the public to demand and expect a Muslim woman to remove her religious rags. Only the police can do that—but which invariably leads to strident cries of "foul", and "victimisation", from the local Islamic community. To which I say boo-fucking-hoo.

And yet, motorcyclists, by law, have to remove their helmets before entering a bank, post office, or other government building. And the logic? Because they can't be identified on CCTV.

So the answer is two. In Australia

Thanks

They (the burkas) still draw too much attention here to make for a good cover. If there were lots of them, I am pretty sure it would be an issue. Muslim men would mostly not do that because Islam. Western men don't have that indoctrination.

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03-10-2017, 07:04 PM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(03-10-2017 03:20 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 02:24 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Yes, but there was a time during the 60s I know women in places like Afghanistan, did wear mini-skirts. Not micro minis..but just cut above the knee.

My understanding was that taliban put the kibosh on that practice and it was very difficult for the women that were used to certain freedoms, to having next to none.

... So... that's an oppressive regime regulating women's clothing... I oppose that. Same as I oppose any Western government doing the same.

You also realize that is an extreme example of one country. That said the influence of western culture has caused some islamic countries to double down and further enact rules to restrict women.


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03-10-2017, 07:24 PM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(03-10-2017 07:02 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 06:58 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  So the answer is two. In Australia

Thanks

They (the burkas) still draw too much attention here to make for a good cover. If there were lots of them, I am pretty sure it would be an issue. Muslim men would mostly not do that because Islam. Western men don't have that indoctrination.

So eliminating the burka, will protect Westerners from crimes in case an Western male decides to dress like a Muslim woman and commit a crime?

And again, I asked how widespread is this or is just a 'what if' thing?

Religious or Cultural stuff aside, I really do feel if a woman wants to cover her face or just her hair or whole body she should be able to. Just like here, if she wants to walk down the road half naked she can.

We had a Jewish family that lived close to us, the sister in law always covered her hair or wore a wig out in public -- it was a cultural thing for her. She didn't feel oppressed in fact quite the opposite.


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03-10-2017, 07:47 PM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(03-10-2017 07:01 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 03:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  The law applies to men, too. No one gets to cover his or her face in public.

But to be fair, I don't think there's a mass of guys in clown makeup going around.

I think this law's intent is at women. I really do believe this will cause more women to feel isolated and trapped in their homes. Instead of being around the influence of other people and especially women outside of their culture.
TBH, I think the law is because the law makers are afraid that the practice of hiding Muslim women's faces will catch on in their country.

It has nothing to do with fear that a masked person will commit a crime. That is just cover for this discriminating policy.

Just like Trump and Repubs trying to ban Muslims. They say it is because of terrorist threat from those particular countries which just happen to be Muslim coutries. But actually terrorists pose a minor threat, very minor when compared to 'mericans shooting each other with the guns that Trump and Repubs what them all to have free access to.
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03-10-2017, 07:48 PM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2017 07:51 PM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(03-10-2017 02:57 PM)SYZ Wrote:  But... but... their defenders claim that they're not indoctrinated by their belief—that they voluntarily choose to wear their religious rags, and it's got nothing to do with their men. As I understand the word, to "indoctrinate" means to teach someone to accept a set of beliefs uncritically, or more crudely, to brainwash them.

Indoctrination doesn't just mean religious. Sure on this forum we tend to apply it that way, but the word doesn't mean just religious. You have a set of beliefs that you believe uncritically to be true. One could argue based on your posts that you've been indoctrinated to have a set a beliefs against certain people. Maybe where you live there is too much focus on the differences and not enough on the ways your exactly like them (save for superficial differences like the way they dress).

You know that I like you personally, we just don't agree on this topic. That's ok that we don't. I hope one day we can understand each other better.


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03-10-2017, 08:54 PM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
I think it best to consider the history of countries such as Austria and Spain, Italy etc, that have banned the burka. Each country has a long history of either xianity or catholicism. These histories must factor into a decision that impacts islam.

It seems quite obvious when one considers the many wars. Spain was unable to get out from under the muslim yoke until 1453.

Of course there is hostility.

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03-10-2017, 09:22 PM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(03-10-2017 08:54 PM)Banjo Wrote:  I think it best to consider the history of countries such as Austria and Spain, Italy etc, that have banned the burka. Each country has a long history of either xianity or catholicism. These histories must factor into a decision that impacts islam.

It seems quite obvious when one considers the many wars. Spain was unable to get out from under the muslim yoke until 1453.

Of course there is hostility.

Are you implying that Australia long period of white supremacist immigration policies are still having a cultural impact on the perception of immigrants who display different cultural norms (and skin tone) than those of white Australian? If so, you are probably not completly wrong in my opinion.

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03-10-2017, 11:48 PM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2017 11:54 PM by morondog.)
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
I can see an argument for removing the burqa in situations where identification is called for, such as entering a bank. Personally the public spaces ban I think is bullshit. Otherwise fuck motorcycle helmets, fuck ski masks, fuck wedding veils (you never know what those fuckers might be hiding under there).

If there are stats proving that people disguised with a burqa are creating a crime epidemic in Austria, then maybe some reasonable level of law is called for. Otherwise I see it as "Criminals might wear a Mickey Mouse costume to hide their identity, therefore I am going to ban the wearing of a Mickey Mouse costume." It's overly intrusive. The state has no business dictating peoples' clothing. I think it's purely a discriminatory law disguised as something about public safety, riding a wave of public hysteria about Muslims.

ETA: and rather than just relying on our intuition to decide if the people affected by the law are oppressed and need to be freed, one could actually, y'know, ask them. Dodgy In the case of the French burqa ban IIRC many elected to carry on wearing them despite the law and the penalties. So... congratulations, you "made these women free" by imposing penalties on them for dressing in a certain way. Yaaaaay Western ideals of freedom Rolleyes

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03-10-2017, 11:51 PM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
This whole thing seems very confusing. Announcing "integration" as the reason doesn't gel with also banning ski masks and other face coverings at the same time. My wife thinks that it is to do with security, but they are frightened to admit that so they try to make it sound positive.

It sounds like the security threat isn't very high based on what people have said here, so I'm not sure why this would be happening now. Maybe it's a fear of the potential spread of Islam and the resultant problems.

I think that this law will ultimately benefit Muslim women, but that it will get worse before it gets better. However, it's not the government's business to try and force people to integrate with each other. So I'd oppose this on principle if their only reasons were cultural ones.

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