Austria implements "burqa ban"
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04-10-2017, 12:14 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(03-10-2017 11:51 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  I think that this law will ultimately benefit Muslim women, but that it will get worse before it gets better.

I think it will absolutely not. It also won't encourage integration, which is its stated purpose. Forced conformity to western standards will just ingrain the notion that Muslims are second-class citizens in Austria, which will be true, since IMO this is explicit discrimination. It will mean that Muslims will stick to their own enclaves and mistrust outsiders.

What *would* help with integration IMO would be to be a little less fearful, a little more welcoming, celebrate people's diversity, let Muslim kids play with Christian kids and grow up together, hold events where whole communities come together... I dunno. Encourage a bit of mixing. After a while the immigrants will pick up aspects of the local culture themselves, while retaining their own identity.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-10-2017, 12:22 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
I think there is a lot of confusion about this issue sgoin on. I will try to unravel it and state some things crisp and clear, from my PoV.

Yes, women are suppressed by being forced to wear those garments against their will. Simple fact. Its our duty to do something, within the framework of our constitutions and their intent.

But it gests more complicated. If the women are educated that way and its natural to them to wear such a garment, then its opression to force them to remove it by law, as Austria does. Yes, its actually opression twice. First by educating them and making them think they have to wear one, and then again by forcing them to put it down. This isnt math where -1 x -1 = 1. Two opressions dont cancel each other out. The solution for this situation is education and cultural pressure. We dont have the right as a society to enter someones home and tell them what to believe or wear. What we need to do is to apply pressure to this self reinforcing system of Helsinki syndrome, we have to break the vicious circle. We need to educate them, educate their children (in school), we have to make it clear in every public way, that forcing anyone (directly or taking his/her mind hostage) to wear certain garments is not acceptable.period. We must state this everywhere and all the time. We must make it harder for them to install this mind control, as far as law allows us,

but we must not respond to opression with opression

Now back to Austria and the arguments for the ban, aka. "people concealed as muslim women comitting crime". Come on, dont insult my intellect by suggesting i am even considering you are serious here. Of course helmets and ski masks are "collateral damage" in the process of trying to discriminate against muslims. Since its clearly not allowed to discriminate against certain parts of the population, particularly for religious reasons, and even the most stupid idiot knows this, all of the people get discriminated equally. So, yeah, people who have motorbikes or like to ski are on the receiving end too, but yeah, "we just showed those darm opressive muslims, by...opressing them". Facepalm Facepalm Facepalm
Again, dont insult my intellect by suggesting that has to do with anything else. Censored

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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04-10-2017, 12:28 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
Incidentally, as far as I'm aware Muslim society isn't that lovely in itself. It's patriarchal, homophobic, and honour killings are common, especially against women, for such crimes as converting to Christianity etc. These things need to be addressed, but in and of itself it's not a crime to hold stone-age ideas, so the response needs to be something other than a blanket ban on cultural self-expression. Also Islam is not monolithic and like Christianity there are different sects with more moderate views, as well as the extreme ones equivalent to the Christian crazies.

I think the correct way to address these things is through support networks, shelters for women who're trying to escape from that life, education and the like. So to be clear: if it *is* the woman's choice to wear the burqa, then let her. If it's *not* her choice, as is so frequently alleged, then have support available so that she can safely choose not do so.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-10-2017, 04:02 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(03-10-2017 11:51 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  I think that this law will ultimately benefit Muslim women, but that it will get worse before it gets better. However, it's not the government's business to try and force people to integrate with each other. So I'd oppose this on principle if their only reasons were cultural ones.

I think it is actually governments role to promote integration if multicultural societies are to survive.
I'm for the ban, I believe that in free, modern, forward thinking societies there is no place for this attire. Many women are forced to cover, not just in Islamic countries but also across the west.
To me this is just another form of control used by men and religion.

I for one would like to see the back of it in the UK.

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04-10-2017, 05:06 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2017 05:09 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
I agree that in reality, it's unlikely any woman would choose to walk around with a massive bag over their body and head if it wasn't drummed into them since birth that God will be angry with them if they don't. It's a disgusting symbol of oppression.

I also agree that helping people integrate is a responsibility of governments, but I don't know if this is the way to do it. I'd prefer positive methods rather than authorative ones. This thing is a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.

As has been mentioned, we have rules in the UK for some shops that you can't disguise your face, because you need to be identifiable on CCTV. It's bullshit that we give Islam exceptions to this. They should at least have to unveil their faces. I'd prefer a policy of having to have your face showing in all public areas, as I've mentioned. Let's face it, if someone was walking down the street in a balaclava the police would not simply ignore it.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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04-10-2017, 09:55 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(04-10-2017 04:02 AM)Thedemonbarber Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 11:51 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  I think that this law will ultimately benefit Muslim women, but that it will get worse before it gets better. However, it's not the government's business to try and force people to integrate with each other. So I'd oppose this on principle if their only reasons were cultural ones.

I think it is actually governments role to promote integration if multicultural societies are to survive.
I'm for the ban, I believe that in free, modern, forward thinking societies there is no place for this attire. Many women are forced to cover, not just in Islamic countries but also across the west.
To me this is just another form of control used by men and religion.

I for one would like to see the back of it in the UK.

So, you believe that all women should dress in a way that conforms your sensibilities? Even if they honestly want to dress in a way they believe is most modest? I personally never wear shorts in public, it's my personal thing and I wouldn't want to be told by a government that I must because they believe I'm somehow being oppressed into believing shorts are wrong. I also don't own a swimsuit and have been to many beaches -- before someone gets cute about this, I wear my regular clothes. My point is that personally, I don't like showing a lot of skin.

I also can't walk around barefoot, I actually keep my sandals on my feet while at the beach -- unless the sand is super soft.


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And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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04-10-2017, 11:41 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(04-10-2017 04:02 AM)Thedemonbarber Wrote:  I think it is actually governments role to promote integration if multicultural societies are to survive.



I'm for the ban, I believe that in free, modern, forward thinking societies there is no place for this attire. Many women are forced to cover, not just in Islamic countries but also across the west.
These two statements above contradict each other.

If you want a Muslim woman to integrate into society, you need to welcome her, you need to make her feel safe, you need to talk to her.

If you ban the way she looks then she will not join society, she will be stuck at home wondering what society is like.
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04-10-2017, 11:44 AM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
I've seen women where a burqa is an improvement.....

Woke up with a few too..,,



Blink

....

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04-10-2017, 12:40 PM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(04-10-2017 11:44 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  I've seen women where a burqa is an improvement.....

Woke up with a few too..,,



Blink

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-10-2017, 12:54 PM
RE: Austria implements "burqa ban"
(03-10-2017 01:32 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 12:46 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Telling a women who is wearring a burqa or a niqab to remove her face veil will in no way make her free.
Perhaps there should also be a ban on women wearing make-up. It is almost a mask. Perhaps we should create freedom for women by outlawing them wearing make-up.

Also maybe outlaw the bikini. It makes women into sex objects, stops people seeing them as people but just as fuck toys. If we outlaw bikinis we are creating freedom for the women to become people and not just sex objects. We create freedom for women by creating laws telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies, especially regarding clothes and things on their faces.

I'm not sure about earrings and studs and stuff, maybe that should also be illegal, can create freedom for a woman by stopping them wearing things on their faces!

None of the things you mentioned pose a security risk, except maybe the bikini or anything that reveals too much ankle around muslim refugees. If I have to get my picture taken without even wearing sunglasses and my picture fed into a national database for facial recognition software, so should the muslims. The whole burka thing is simply to hide identity. I could dress a male felon in a burka and take them anywhere in the country and nobody would be the wiser, as long as they didn't talk. So, basically treat him like a typical muslim female, do all the talking for them.
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