Awkward Moments Children's Bible
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27-04-2015, 10:29 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(24-04-2015 12:25 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(24-04-2015 08:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Do you consider me a real person with real feelings, desires and ideas or as some type of debate robot only?

I do what I preach and vice versa or at least try to. From an early age, my children learned the Bible with their parents. We would say euphemisms like "so-and-so was very mean to so-and-so and hurt them" rather than get into rape and what a rape is at a tender age. Give me a break.

Your concerns underscore the very nature of this debate. That the Bible is a source of contention when talking about influencing children not only because it's a religious text but because it touches on mature themes. And?

I get that. I'm not saying they are appropriate for children. I'm commenting specifically on your use of the word indoctrination. Do you feel that if you were to touch on these things first, that it would negatively impact the indoctrination? What if you were teaching an adult and not a kid (who was mature enough for the material)?

No, you start with the happy parts, get them hooked, and then bust out the apologetics to stave off the questions and ugly parts. The fact that you were talking about kids gives you a convenient excuse, but you're not going to bring up God-sanctioned genocides in a conversion spiel unless the person asks you about it.

The word indoctrinate was an unfortunate choice as its dictionary definition involves accepting certain beliefs uncritically. However, my wife and I were happy to indoctrinate our children to:

* respect others
* brush their teeth
* flush the toilet following use
* read the Bible

No prob.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-04-2015, 01:26 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(27-04-2015 10:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The word indoctrinate was an unfortunate choice as its dictionary definition involves accepting certain beliefs uncritically. However, my wife and I were happy to indoctrinate our children to:

* respect others
* brush their teeth
* flush the toilet following use
* read the Bible

No prob.

So when the Bible says disrespect others by denigrating their lifestyles, e.g. homosexuality, can they use the toilet to flush the Bible, close the lid, then brush their teeth to get the taste of bullshit out of their mouths?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-04-2015, 01:35 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(27-04-2015 10:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(24-04-2015 12:25 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I get that. I'm not saying they are appropriate for children. I'm commenting specifically on your use of the word indoctrination. Do you feel that if you were to touch on these things first, that it would negatively impact the indoctrination? What if you were teaching an adult and not a kid (who was mature enough for the material)?

No, you start with the happy parts, get them hooked, and then bust out the apologetics to stave off the questions and ugly parts. The fact that you were talking about kids gives you a convenient excuse, but you're not going to bring up God-sanctioned genocides in a conversion spiel unless the person asks you about it.

The word indoctrinate was an unfortunate choice as its dictionary definition involves accepting certain beliefs uncritically. However, my wife and I were happy to indoctrinate our children to:

* respect others
* brush their teeth
* flush the toilet following use
* read the Bible

No prob.


If you're so stupid as to indoctrinate your kids into brushing their teeth, instead of explaining how it helps keep their teeth healthy and their breath fresh, then you're in no position to be having kids. Seriously, you're not doing yourself any favors by being this much of a weaseling douchebag.


When you need to purposely obtuse and poorly conflate 'indoctrination' with 'teaching' in a a sad attempt to justify the former, you've already fucked up.

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28-04-2015, 12:56 PM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(27-04-2015 10:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(24-04-2015 12:25 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I get that. I'm not saying they are appropriate for children. I'm commenting specifically on your use of the word indoctrination. Do you feel that if you were to touch on these things first, that it would negatively impact the indoctrination? What if you were teaching an adult and not a kid (who was mature enough for the material)?

No, you start with the happy parts, get them hooked, and then bust out the apologetics to stave off the questions and ugly parts. The fact that you were talking about kids gives you a convenient excuse, but you're not going to bring up God-sanctioned genocides in a conversion spiel unless the person asks you about it.

The word indoctrinate was an unfortunate choice as its dictionary definition involves accepting certain beliefs uncritically. However, my wife and I were happy to indoctrinate our children to:

* respect others
* brush their teeth
* flush the toilet following use
* read the Bible

No prob.

You don't think you ought to encourage critical independent thought into what you're telling your children to do? You'd just want them to do it because you're telling them to? I'm sure you were happy to do so, many are because it's easy for young children, it's just many problems with authority arise when people realize "because I said so or ordered so" is a terrible justification and not amble reason to obey the order.

I certainly don't find many of the things the Bible says are detestable detestable, like a man sleeping with a man like man does with a woman, making sure a woman stays away after childbirth for weeks because shes "unclean" even moreso after birthing a girl, or blending wool and linen clothes.

If you think a person should be stoned or put to death, You think you're being objective in the judgement of a person? I'm not certain you can be objective in a case where you think a person should be put to death. Based on who's qualifications do you make that. The bibles? Then what is objective about your views?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-04-2015, 08:39 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
All,

You are taking stuff way too far IMHO. Occam's razor this stuff--my children were indoctrinated to STOP! when mom or dad said STOP where you are!

This ingrained in them and us the ability to stop them from crossing a dangerous street unaided should their hands leave ours for any reason where near an intersection. All of you with parents will recognize that STOP and obey STOP aren't times for deep, interactive discussions on reasons to obey. You are further taking my cute little parable too far.

I ALWAYS and EVER have encouraged my children to be independent, critical thinkers. I'm sure you've done the same.

As for Clyde's question:

Quote:I'm not certain you can be objective in a case where you think a person should be put to death. Based on who's qualifications do you make that. The bibles? Then what is objective about your views?

The dictionary definition of objective is to be uninfluenced by personal emotion in the weighing of facts. The Bible texts represent one possible set of objective standards. "There are no rules/reality is in flux/I'll do whatever feels good because I can" would be a subjective standard.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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29-04-2015, 10:07 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(27-04-2015 10:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The word indoctrinate was an unfortunate choice as its dictionary definition involves accepting certain beliefs uncritically. However, my wife and I were happy to indoctrinate our children to:

* respect others
* brush their teeth
* flush the toilet following use
* read the Bible

No prob.

* I teach my daughters to respect others out of empathy. I explain to them that they don't like how it feels when people are mean to them, so they shouldn't be mean to others.
* I teach my daughters to brush their teeth to keep them healthy. Sure, they'll only half get the message some times when they claim that they don't need to brush them because they didn't have candy, but that means at least they're applying some level of understanding of the concept.
* I shouldn't have to explain why I tell my daughters to flush the toilet.
* I won't, however, teach my daughters to read the Bible, again, for obvious reasons.

So, yes, your choice of the use of the word indoctrinate was, and continues to be unfortunate.

Teach your kids to think for themselves, and if you explain and demonstrate good values, hopefully they'll choose to follow those values. If you force them on them blindly, they might reject them if they later reject some of your other teachings. This is my best guess as to why so many theists think that atheists must be nihilists; it's like they can't conceive of thinking things through without assuming God as the root cause of everything. If the only way you can think of to instill morality in children is to indoctrinate them, you're doing it wrong.
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30-04-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(29-04-2015 10:07 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(27-04-2015 10:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The word indoctrinate was an unfortunate choice as its dictionary definition involves accepting certain beliefs uncritically. However, my wife and I were happy to indoctrinate our children to:

* respect others
* brush their teeth
* flush the toilet following use
* read the Bible

No prob.

* I teach my daughters to respect others out of empathy. I explain to them that they don't like how it feels when people are mean to them, so they shouldn't be mean to others.
* I teach my daughters to brush their teeth to keep them healthy. Sure, they'll only half get the message some times when they claim that they don't need to brush them because they didn't have candy, but that means at least they're applying some level of understanding of the concept.
* I shouldn't have to explain why I tell my daughters to flush the toilet.
* I won't, however, teach my daughters to read the Bible, again, for obvious reasons.

So, yes, your choice of the use of the word indoctrinate was, and continues to be unfortunate.

Teach your kids to think for themselves, and if you explain and demonstrate good values, hopefully they'll choose to follow those values. If you force them on them blindly, they might reject them if they later reject some of your other teachings. This is my best guess as to why so many theists think that atheists must be nihilists; it's like they can't conceive of thinking things through without assuming God as the root cause of everything. If the only way you can think of to instill morality in children is to indoctrinate them, you're doing it wrong.

God is the root cause of everything in version 1.0. God didn't make my kids or yours, you and I made love to our spouses. But He made the first people and flora and fauna to bear fruit after their kind.

Of course, I taught my kids about dental disease, indoor plumbing, and the golden rule.

Let's replace indoctrinate with obey. That should do it, I hope.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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30-04-2015, 01:20 PM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(30-04-2015 12:15 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But He made the first people and flora and fauna to bear fruit after their kind.

I'm assuming you teach them that it was a dust man and a rib woman. In a garden with the talking snake Not the 200,000 year genealogy of Homo sapien, or that the earliest flowing plant appeared around 125 million year old.

How do you explain to them he made them? What process?

And what do you mean by kind?

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30-04-2015, 02:26 PM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(30-04-2015 12:15 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(29-04-2015 10:07 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  * I teach my daughters to respect others out of empathy. I explain to them that they don't like how it feels when people are mean to them, so they shouldn't be mean to others.
* I teach my daughters to brush their teeth to keep them healthy. Sure, they'll only half get the message some times when they claim that they don't need to brush them because they didn't have candy, but that means at least they're applying some level of understanding of the concept.
* I shouldn't have to explain why I tell my daughters to flush the toilet.
* I won't, however, teach my daughters to read the Bible, again, for obvious reasons.

So, yes, your choice of the use of the word indoctrinate was, and continues to be unfortunate.

Teach your kids to think for themselves, and if you explain and demonstrate good values, hopefully they'll choose to follow those values. If you force them on them blindly, they might reject them if they later reject some of your other teachings. This is my best guess as to why so many theists think that atheists must be nihilists; it's like they can't conceive of thinking things through without assuming God as the root cause of everything. If the only way you can think of to instill morality in children is to indoctrinate them, you're doing it wrong.

God is the root cause of everything in version 1.0. God didn't make my kids or yours, you and I made love to our spouses. But He made the first people and flora and fauna to bear fruit after their kind.

Of course, I taught my kids about dental disease, indoor plumbing, and the golden rule.

Let's replace indoctrinate with obey. That should do it, I hope.

I'd still find it rather unhelpful as a way to educate. It boils down to a moral values you clearly have and think are good things, which are the layers of respect and following authority. It comes across as poor from an outside perspective that doesn't believe these ought to be granted "just because"

It's like when you complained you ought to get respected enough to be called nondenominational evangelist opposed to protestant. Why should you get that respect, you seem to act like respect should be giving because you are here or simply exist. Well that's not the way it is valued by all. Some think you should have to earn respect or earn a reason for obeying authority other than it simply being there. That's why they find it wise to judge the questionable acts of a God and see it for it's illogical flaws that don't make sense as a real being.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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01-05-2015, 06:01 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(30-04-2015 12:15 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God is the root cause of everything in version 1.0. God didn't make my kids or yours, you and I made love to our spouses. But He made the first people and flora and fauna to bear fruit after their kind.

I try to teach my kids why to do things. If I tell them to do something, I try to explain why. My dad did this with me a lot, and I listened to him far more than I listened to my step mom (who didn't explain things).

God didn't do a very good job of this in Eden. His one rule was arbitrary, the reason for it was not explained, and he didn't even properly convey the punishment. You could technically say that eating the fruit lead to their eventual death, but it's not like God warned them about
  • Getting kicked out of Eden
  • Having to work for food
  • Having to fend off predatory animals
  • Increased childbearing pains
  • The introduction of disease through the corruption of DNA by Original Sin (yes, apologists actually say this)
So, I'm glad you're doing a better job with instructing your kids about things than God did in version 1.0. Apparently, we've learned good parenting by observing what not to do.


(30-04-2015 12:15 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Of course, I taught my kids about dental disease, indoor plumbing, and the golden rule.

You also said you indoctrinated them, which doesn't hint at explaining reasons or critical thinking.


(30-04-2015 12:15 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Let's replace indoctrinate with obey. That should do it, I hope.

Perhaps with these examples, but the whole start of this discussion was you talking about indoctrinating children to follow the Bible's instruction to love others as themselves. I'm still not sure "obey" is a much better fit. I suppose you could reason with kids to understand that empathy is better for various reasons, and that could lead to obedience, but proper instruction is far more important here, I feel.
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