Awkward Moments Children's Bible
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05-05-2015, 10:00 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(30-04-2015 01:20 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(30-04-2015 12:15 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But He made the first people and flora and fauna to bear fruit after their kind.

I'm assuming you teach them that it was a dust man and a rib woman. In a garden with the talking snake Not the 200,000 year genealogy of Homo sapien, or that the earliest flowing plant appeared around 125 million year old.

How do you explain to them he made them? What process?

And what do you mean by kind?

Have you been in the American south to see the exposed, rich, red clay that is high in carbon and predominant in the topography there? That is the closest we can get to the Hebrew to English "dust" we're discussing here.

The rib also makes sense to me in two ways - one, we are still working to catch up to our Heavenly Father and make new organs and new life from the DNA of cells. Adam's rib had genetic material in it but 2) as important, Adam would have been "pierced in his side" for his bride. The proof of Jesus's death was when He was pierced in His side and blood and water flowed.

As my children got a little older, they came to understand evolutionary science, older dating(s) for humans and plants, etc. as you mentioned. They are able to say, "The Bible claims that and science agrees that..." as they build consensus in harmonious, frank discussions with others.

I think the issue here is different. You seem to be taking a "Gosh, those Bible authors were ignorant about reality" stance. After many years of Bible study I remain convinced that the Bible writers were extraordinary in many areas of discourse from the natural world to philosophy, and of course, religion.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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05-05-2015, 11:03 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(05-05-2015 10:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(30-04-2015 01:20 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  I'm assuming you teach them that it was a dust man and a rib woman. In a garden with the talking snake Not the 200,000 year genealogy of Homo sapien, or that the earliest flowing plant appeared around 125 million year old.

How do you explain to them he made them? What process?

And what do you mean by kind?

Have you been in the American south to see the exposed, rich, red clay that is high in carbon and predominant in the topography there? That is the closest we can get to the Hebrew to English "dust" we're discussing here.

The rib also makes sense to me in two ways - one, we are still working to catch up to our Heavenly Father and make new organs and new life from the DNA of cells. Adam's rib had genetic material in it but 2) as important, Adam would have been "pierced in his side" for his bride. The proof of Jesus's death was when He was pierced in His side and blood and water flowed.

As my children got a little older, they came to understand evolutionary science, older dating(s) for humans and plants, etc. as you mentioned. They are able to say, "The Bible claims that and science agrees that..." as they build consensus in harmonious, frank discussions with others.

I think the issue here is different. You seem to be taking a "Gosh, those Bible authors were ignorant about reality" stance. After many years of Bible study I remain convinced that the Bible writers were extraordinary in many areas of discourse from the natural world to philosophy, and of course, religion.

It must really suck trying to teach concepts to children, that will cause so much confusion and contradiction with the real world as they learn into adulthood. My son is now seventeen and is waking up out of the game that his christian influences have played him for. Good for him to realize as a young adult what a scam the whole concept is.

So you feel it is a good thing to present stories, fables, and myths as facts - and a book encouraging out right violence and condemnation as a moral guide. That is criminal at the very least.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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05-05-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(05-05-2015 10:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(30-04-2015 01:20 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  I'm assuming you teach them that it was a dust man and a rib woman. In a garden with the talking snake Not the 200,000 year genealogy of Homo sapien, or that the earliest flowing plant appeared around 125 million year old.

How do you explain to them he made them? What process?

And what do you mean by kind?

Have you been in the American south to see the exposed, rich, red clay that is high in carbon and predominant in the topography there? That is the closest we can get to the Hebrew to English "dust" we're discussing here.

The rib also makes sense to me in two ways - one, we are still working to catch up to our Heavenly Father and make new organs and new life from the DNA of cells. Adam's rib had genetic material in it but 2) as important, Adam would have been "pierced in his side" for his bride. The proof of Jesus's death was when He was pierced in His side and blood and water flowed.

As my children got a little older, they came to understand evolutionary science, older dating(s) for humans and plants, etc. as you mentioned. They are able to say, "The Bible claims that and science agrees that..." as they build consensus in harmonious, frank discussions with others.

I think the issue here is different. You seem to be taking a "Gosh, those Bible authors were ignorant about reality" stance. After many years of Bible study I remain convinced that the Bible writers were extraordinary in many areas of discourse from the natural world to philosophy, and of course, religion.

Some scholars believe the rib was chosen re: Eve because it was by Adam's side. If it was near the head area--she would be considered an equal to Adam and that was a no-no in biblical times. Have u read the Enuma Elish?

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Enuma_Elish
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06-05-2015, 08:22 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(05-05-2015 11:03 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 10:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Have you been in the American south to see the exposed, rich, red clay that is high in carbon and predominant in the topography there? That is the closest we can get to the Hebrew to English "dust" we're discussing here.

The rib also makes sense to me in two ways - one, we are still working to catch up to our Heavenly Father and make new organs and new life from the DNA of cells. Adam's rib had genetic material in it but 2) as important, Adam would have been "pierced in his side" for his bride. The proof of Jesus's death was when He was pierced in His side and blood and water flowed.

As my children got a little older, they came to understand evolutionary science, older dating(s) for humans and plants, etc. as you mentioned. They are able to say, "The Bible claims that and science agrees that..." as they build consensus in harmonious, frank discussions with others.

I think the issue here is different. You seem to be taking a "Gosh, those Bible authors were ignorant about reality" stance. After many years of Bible study I remain convinced that the Bible writers were extraordinary in many areas of discourse from the natural world to philosophy, and of course, religion.

It must really suck trying to teach concepts to children, that will cause so much confusion and contradiction with the real world as they learn into adulthood. My son is now seventeen and is waking up out of the game that his christian influences have played him for. Good for him to realize as a young adult what a scam the whole concept is.

So you feel it is a good thing to present stories, fables, and myths as facts - and a book encouraging out right violence and condemnation as a moral guide. That is criminal at the very least.

Unfortunately, I must contend with statements like yours--trimming it down, we have "teaching the Bible to children is criminal or worse".

Fortunately, my children see Christians in their lives as agents for good. People who live the Bible without hypocrisy have a rich inheritance.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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06-05-2015, 08:26 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(05-05-2015 12:47 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 10:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Have you been in the American south to see the exposed, rich, red clay that is high in carbon and predominant in the topography there? That is the closest we can get to the Hebrew to English "dust" we're discussing here.

The rib also makes sense to me in two ways - one, we are still working to catch up to our Heavenly Father and make new organs and new life from the DNA of cells. Adam's rib had genetic material in it but 2) as important, Adam would have been "pierced in his side" for his bride. The proof of Jesus's death was when He was pierced in His side and blood and water flowed.

As my children got a little older, they came to understand evolutionary science, older dating(s) for humans and plants, etc. as you mentioned. They are able to say, "The Bible claims that and science agrees that..." as they build consensus in harmonious, frank discussions with others.

I think the issue here is different. You seem to be taking a "Gosh, those Bible authors were ignorant about reality" stance. After many years of Bible study I remain convinced that the Bible writers were extraordinary in many areas of discourse from the natural world to philosophy, and of course, religion.

Some scholars believe the rib was chosen re: Eve because it was by Adam's side. If it was near the head area--she would be considered an equal to Adam and that was a no-no in biblical times. Have u read the Enuma Elish?

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Enuma_Elish

I take "She will be called wo-man because she came out of man" as a lovely statement not of mere equality, but of oneness. Sacred marriage is an awesome thing. My wife left an affirming greeting card for me on my desk this morning. She is awesome!

Jesus Christ did more for women in 3 years than the "enlightened" Greeks and Romans did in 1,000. Moses affirmed that daughters were to have an inheritance along with sons. Women judged Israel, leading it, even taking the glory in battle away from the men.

The Bible is not a patriarchal evil but affirms men and women as partners--from it's second chapter on.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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06-05-2015, 08:36 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(06-05-2015 08:26 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 12:47 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Some scholars believe the rib was chosen re: Eve because it was by Adam's side. If it was near the head area--she would be considered an equal to Adam and that was a no-no in biblical times. Have u read the Enuma Elish?

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Enuma_Elish

I take "She will be called wo-man because she came out of man" as a lovely statement not of mere equality, but of oneness. Sacred marriage is an awesome thing. My wife left an affirming greeting card for me on my desk this morning. She is awesome!

Jesus Christ did more for women in 3 years than the "enlightened" Greeks and Romans did in 1,000. Moses affirmed that daughters were to have an inheritance along with sons. Women judged Israel, leading it, even taking the glory in battle away from the men.

The Bible is not a patriarchal evil but affirms men and women as partners--from it's second chapter on.

Equals??

1 Peter 3:5 "This is how the holy women of old made themselves beautiful. They trusted God and accepted the authority of their husbands."

Ephesians 5: "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing."
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06-05-2015, 02:25 PM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(06-05-2015 08:36 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(06-05-2015 08:26 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I take "She will be called wo-man because she came out of man" as a lovely statement not of mere equality, but of oneness. Sacred marriage is an awesome thing. My wife left an affirming greeting card for me on my desk this morning. She is awesome!

Jesus Christ did more for women in 3 years than the "enlightened" Greeks and Romans did in 1,000. Moses affirmed that daughters were to have an inheritance along with sons. Women judged Israel, leading it, even taking the glory in battle away from the men.

The Bible is not a patriarchal evil but affirms men and women as partners--from it's second chapter on.

Equals??

1 Peter 3:5 "This is how the holy women of old made themselves beautiful. They trusted God and accepted the authority of their husbands."

Ephesians 5: "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing."

First, I said beyond "equals" to "oneness". Second, I am celebrating my 22nd anniversary, Lord willing, this fall, to a very fine Christian gal who tries to adhere to this standard and fails epically and often, just as I try to live up to my standard, which is harder than submission/responsiveness, to "lay down my life for my wife, all my rights, my everything, just as Christ loved the church and died for it." THANK GOD He put something in about submissiveness in relationships--we're really bad at it. Husbands in the Bible are to submit to their WIVES ALSO, and to Christians they're not married to, to their elders, the government, etc. It's hard, and sometimes it feels like it sucks. Yeah.

You can treat me like the anti-feminist, wife-beating punk you may have in mind to play me on TV, or you can talk to me like a real person and not some cardboard cutout. I know that's tough on a forum where there is no non-verbal communication--but--the same passage in the Bible teaches that men are to submit to everyone, including the Mrs. But God is good at nagging us to do what we have trouble doing.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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06-05-2015, 03:03 PM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(06-05-2015 02:25 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(06-05-2015 08:36 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Equals??

1 Peter 3:5 "This is how the holy women of old made themselves beautiful. They trusted God and accepted the authority of their husbands."

Ephesians 5: "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing."

First, I said beyond "equals" to "oneness". Second, I am celebrating my 22nd anniversary, Lord willing, this fall, to a very fine Christian gal who tries to adhere to this standard and fails epically and often, just as I try to live up to my standard, which is harder than submission/responsiveness, to "lay down my life for my wife, all my rights, my everything, just as Christ loved the church and died for it." THANK GOD He put something in about submissiveness in relationships--we're really bad at it. Husbands in the Bible are to submit to their WIVES ALSO, and to Christians they're not married to, to their elders, the government, etc. It's hard, and sometimes it feels like it sucks. Yeah.

You can treat me like the anti-feminist, wife-beating punk you may have in mind to play me on TV, or you can talk to me like a real person and not some cardboard cutout. I know that's tough on a forum where there is no non-verbal communication--but--the same passage in the Bible teaches that men are to submit to everyone, including the Mrs. But God is good at nagging us to do what we have trouble doing.

First, Congrats on your 22nd anniversary. Smile Second, I'm not treating you as an anti-feminist, wife-beating punk--I am simply stating what it says in the Bible. I am not aware of any passages that say husbands should submit to their wives? I am not trying to be rude--I simply don't know of any--that doesn't mean they aren't there. Can you tell me what passages say that so I can go and look them up? I used to be a christian and enjoyed reading the Bible when i thought it was God's Word. As an atheist, I still enjoy reading the Bible (for literary/cultural/historical value).
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07-05-2015, 06:17 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(06-05-2015 02:25 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  First, I said beyond "equals" to "oneness". Second, I am celebrating my 22nd anniversary, Lord willing, this fall, to a very fine Christian gal who tries to adhere to this standard and fails epically and often, just as I try to live up to my standard, which is harder than submission/responsiveness, to "lay down my life for my wife, all my rights, my everything, just as Christ loved the church and died for it." THANK GOD He put something in about submissiveness in relationships--we're really bad at it. Husbands in the Bible are to submit to their WIVES ALSO, and to Christians they're not married to, to their elders, the government, etc. It's hard, and sometimes it feels like it sucks.

Do you have a Bible verse that says husbands are to submit to their wives?

If not, then your justification sounds like a way to hand wave the more explicit parts of misogyny by saying that you feel it shouldn't be that way. Don't get me wrong: I think people should be equal and I'm glad when others agree, but I'm asking specifically what the Bible says on the matter.
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07-05-2015, 09:48 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(30-04-2015 12:15 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ...
Let's replace indoctrinate with obey. That should do it, I hope.

"Obey" is perhaps the core problem of indoctrination. You have taught your children to trust in the Lord with all their hearts leaning not on their own understanding[1], right? You have taught your children that a loving father faced with a command from God should Obey that command at the expense of his own child's life[2], right? You've taught them that obedience is more important than life itself[3], right?

I think that goes beyond the teaching that regular brushing and flossing can prevent tooth decay.

The core of morality is not obedience. It is not to disengage the mind and do what one is told. Rather, it is to engage the mind to act ethically and responsibly. I don't think indoctrination is a word we should use lightly but in cases where a child is taught to obey rather than investigate I believe the term is warranted.

As a religious person it was hard to see the indoctrination that constituted the bars of the cage my mind was held in, so when I passed those bars and that cage on I didn't even see it. It was invisible to me. Much of it wasn't in what I said but in what I couldn't say, the questions I couldn't ask earnestly because there was a right answer. The questions that couldn't be investigated because the wrong answer is a sin. The doubts quickly dismissed because we know the Truth. True indoctrination is invisible to the indoctrinated, and "Obey" is one of the ways it quietly expresses itself.

[1] Proverbs 3:5
[2] Genesis 22
[3] Deuteronomy 11

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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