Awkward Moments Children's Bible
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12-05-2015, 07:57 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(11-05-2015 12:05 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(11-05-2015 10:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  No, I disagree. I'm saying women have trouble with submission--this concept is also in Genesis as "the man will lead but you will have a desire to usurp" is how I've heard different Hebrew scholars describe one prophecy shared in the Fall.

I'm also saying men need to be admonished to show more love for their wives. Not just agape but romance and etc.

I'm getting confused.

Are you saying that only women need to submit to their husbands, then? Or are you saying that both do, but women need to more, or something?

Are you saying that only men need to be admonished to show more love to their wives? Or Are you saying that men need to do it more than women?

I'm saying none of those and I apologize for any confusion I've caused you.

Restating: The Bible contains admonishments for Christians to do the right thing. Women in general struggle to submit to their husbands. Not their friends, employers or say, the police, so much. Men struggle to show enough love, agape love and otherwise, to their wives. We all know and should freely admit that our poorest expressions of character often enter the home. Men will say and do the right things all day at work then come home and for varied reasons will not show love and appreciation to their wives.

I haven't found that women lack the showing of love to their husbands. But they do struggle with submission. The fact that they are being exhorted to submit of their free will shows the opposite of a domineering patriarchal view.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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12-05-2015, 08:26 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(12-05-2015 07:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(11-05-2015 12:05 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I'm getting confused.

Are you saying that only women need to submit to their husbands, then? Or are you saying that both do, but women need to more, or something?

Are you saying that only men need to be admonished to show more love to their wives? Or Are you saying that men need to do it more than women?

I'm saying none of those and I apologize for any confusion I've caused you.

Restating: The Bible contains admonishments for Christians to do the right thing. Women in general struggle to submit to their husbands. Not their friends, employers or say, the police, so much. Men struggle to show enough love, agape love and otherwise, to their wives. We all know and should freely admit that our poorest expressions of character often enter the home. Men will say and do the right things all day at work then come home and for varied reasons will not show love and appreciation to their wives.

I haven't found that women lack the showing of love to their husbands. But they do struggle with submission. The fact that they are being exhorted to submit of their free will shows the opposite of a domineering patriarchal view.

Why submit? Why encourage submission? Why suggest women need/should be in submission? Oh, it is all based on the white male power grab - biblical teachings at their best. Do you actually read what you say FFS!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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13-05-2015, 10:03 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(12-05-2015 08:26 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(12-05-2015 07:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm saying none of those and I apologize for any confusion I've caused you.

Restating: The Bible contains admonishments for Christians to do the right thing. Women in general struggle to submit to their husbands. Not their friends, employers or say, the police, so much. Men struggle to show enough love, agape love and otherwise, to their wives. We all know and should freely admit that our poorest expressions of character often enter the home. Men will say and do the right things all day at work then come home and for varied reasons will not show love and appreciation to their wives.

I haven't found that women lack the showing of love to their husbands. But they do struggle with submission. The fact that they are being exhorted to submit of their free will shows the opposite of a domineering patriarchal view.

Why submit? Why encourage submission? Why suggest women need/should be in submission? Oh, it is all based on the white male power grab - biblical teachings at their best. Do you actually read what you say FFS!

1. It's a semitic male power grab. Keep it straight. Smile

2. If you grew up in a two-parent home where your mother (mostly) led, your father (mostly) submitted, that is if they came to any areas of disagreement.

If you live on Mars, the parents there are equals who always and ever come to only mutual decisions in all matters.

3. I don't preach equality, I preach oneness in marriage. The cool thing about oneness is my wife and I are to be of one mind, regardless of our disagreements on the issues.

4. Only blathering madmen and idiots don't listen to their wives, especially on all matters of import. Every pastor I respect I've heard say many times when it comes to picking a house, a car, how to raise the kids, which job the man should take if he wins more than one on an interview, etc. he should go with the wifely wisdom. Every time I've listened, I've been blessed. However, my wife likes to come to me and say, "What do you think, honey?" Then again, I often say to her things like, "You see this couch? Do I like this color?" and she says, "Huh. No, you don't like it!"

5. Men often suck eggs at leadership. They can get the benefit at home of practice, which they badly need. Arguably, Adam screwed us all up (in our nature of disobedience, I don't believe in "original sin" or that dead children go to Hell, etc.) by not LEADING.

6. You are confusing the male power grab, which is a real phenomenon, with the Bible injunctions, which IMMEDIATELY follow the passages that bother you about wifely submission, for men to live for their wives, laying down their lives for them, just as Jesus did for mankind, dying for us. When it comes to my spouse, I have NO priority, no rights, no demands that I can claim other than saying "Honey, how can I serve you today?" Where is your protestation that the Bible verses there are a "female power grab"? Well, where are they? BE CONSISTENT.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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13-05-2015, 01:16 PM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(11-05-2015 10:02 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(08-05-2015 01:29 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Oh that makes soOOo much more sense.

I am familiar with the clay version. When I was child that was the version I was told. In my teenage years i was told it was dust. Ether way the clam is, making an inanimate object animate.

I'm feel a little concerned for you. How you can't see this is delusional. But let me step back a little. Maybe I need to pick something that we both can look in the same light.

In the story Pinocchio, an inanimate wooden puppet becomes "animate", and later a real boy. Pinocchio gets his life threw a magical fairy. Now I'm pretty sure you are familiar with this story, being a farther. And it also being a Disney classic. (If not; a must see.) Now we both (I assume) look at this story and see this is a work of fiction. But why? What if someone REALLY believed Pinocchio was real?
Both the bible and Pinocchio have.
Talking animals: Check
Something of the Earth Coming to life: Check
Magical being: Check
Moral distinctions: Check
People getting eaten by whales: Check
In the end get a grand reward for being good.: Check

Do you see where i'm going? What if instead of the blue faerie we said God was the one that gave life to Pinocchio? Dose that make this Pinocchio story true now? What if we never knew the author of Pinocchio and said god wrote them. Dose it make these events more realistic?


Shocking

So why do you think he just didn't use the clay again? It seemed to work the first time. Why tare out a piece of his creations body. You then make this huge jump to Jesus. In this story this would make God a villain. He knew his creation was going to fall to temptation. And he didn't do anything about it. And that he was going to have to kill himself to appease himself, for the events that he was starting. Stay on topic please.

A least it's a step in the right direction.


You seem the be taking a "Gosh those bible authors were infallible." stance. After many years of Bible Study I have become unconvinced that the Bible writers were extraordinary in any area of the natural world to philosophy, or the had knowledge of the course that this religion was going to go.

I think the Bible readers of past millennia would have trouble understanding DNA, RNA, etc. Do you disagree?

Shocking

What would their understanding of RNA, or DNA have anything to do with what I said? Or the questions I asked?

Wait! Is this you admitting the bible wasn't written by a infallible god? If i'm understanding you correctly. What your saying is for the last thousands of years people couldn't understand the complexities of life and came up with an answer? That you understand that if it was a god he would have given, in detail, the structure of DNA. But since we don't have that it was men who wrote the bible? Oh Q i could kiss you!

Or are you saying that dust means DNA? .... because that's just silly....

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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15-05-2015, 01:03 PM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(13-05-2015 01:16 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(11-05-2015 10:02 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I think the Bible readers of past millennia would have trouble understanding DNA, RNA, etc. Do you disagree?

Shocking

What would their understanding of RNA, or DNA have anything to do with what I said? Or the questions I asked?

Wait! Is this you admitting the bible wasn't written by a infallible god? If i'm understanding you correctly. What your saying is for the last thousands of years people couldn't understand the complexities of life and came up with an answer? That you understand that if it was a god he would have given, in detail, the structure of DNA. But since we don't have that it was men who wrote the bible? Oh Q i could kiss you!

Or are you saying that dust means DNA? .... because that's just silly....

I'm uncertain as to what your objection is. "Deoxyribonucleic acid" does not exist in ancient Hebrew. Nor do the words adenine, guanine, cytosine and thymine. I also never got that the point of the story was how people were created or which mechanisms God used. I got (as have most people I've discussed the story with) that Genesis 2-3 has to do with man's fall, sin, judgment and etc. Perhaps you have a different understanding?

With what standard are you judging this story? 1) Are you saying God shouldn't have used carbon atoms as the base of the mix to make a man? 2) Are you saying that when you attend a funeral and hear the officiant say, "And to dust his body shall return," you interrupt to interject that when the body rots and decays in the grave it may resemble dust eventually but really is something different?

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15-05-2015, 04:23 PM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2015 08:08 AM by Commonsensei.)
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
Again. What would their understanding of RNA, or DNA have anything to do with what I said? Or the questions I asked?

However since I take the time to read and think about yours, i'll be the bigger man.

(15-05-2015 01:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm uncertain as to what your objection is. "Deoxyribonucleic acid" does not exist in ancient Hebrew. Nor do the words adenine, guanine, cytosine and thymine.

I've read in a number your post before that you believe the bible to be Divinely written. That whoever wrote it was simply a medium for the lords divine hand.

If a god who is claimed to be omnipotent can't describe or interpret a word then he can't be omnipotent. If he can't put it succinctly, and demonstrative then he can't be omniscient.

Let's take the English Language for example. We pick up words from other languages and add it to our own. William Shakespeare was known for making up words to convey a point.

Bedroom, Amazement, Laughable. Just some examples.

Which would eventually become part of the English Language. HELL Google is now a word!

So if mere mortals. Can have words that can be interpreted and understood by the masses. Then why can't a god? Heck, he should be even better at it. Right?

If i was talking about making bread. And instead of saying I used Flour, salt, yeast, little bit of water, Bake at 375 degrees for 45 mins (I don't know if this is how long you bake bread don't follow this recipe) And just said "I took some mud from my back yard, and presto!" You would probable eater have some question about my backing skills or wonder how with only one material i could make something completely different.

(15-05-2015 01:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I also never got that the point of the story was how people were created or which mechanisms God used.

You've never wondered about how anything was built?

Now i don't know much if anything about your personal life. Besides your a caring father, and loving husband, that has done misson work. Your personal life is your own. But..

Have you ever built something before? A computer, car, a school project?

Or ever seen a really awesome magic trick and wonder how the magician fooled you?

We're a inquisitive species. We like figuring stuff out. How to build bigger buildings, how to make ships to get us to the moon, things that can tell us time. Why wouldn't we wonder about a story about a "deity" Making a human being from "clay" But when we look at the human bodyit's 70%water not 70% clay, or dust or whatever else beside, what it is.

(15-05-2015 01:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I got (as have most people I've discussed the story with) that Genesis 2-3 has to do with man's fall, sin, judgment and etc. Perhaps you have a different understanding?

My understanding is it never happened.

(15-05-2015 01:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  With what standard are you judging this story?

My standard as a story teller, and reader.

(15-05-2015 01:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1) Are you saying God shouldn't have used carbon atoms as the base of the mix to make a man?

I'm not saying anything of the sort. Because i'm saying that your god dosn't exist. Therefore he couldn't have used any material to build anything.

Your bible doesn't even say he used carbon atoms. It says he used dust or clay. You can make all the clams about clay being rich in carbon atoms, or it like the mud in the south but it doesn't change facts. It never happened.

(15-05-2015 01:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2) Are you saying that when you attend a funeral and hear the officiant say, "And to dust his body shall return," you interrupt to interject that when the body rots and decays in the grave it may resemble dust eventually but really is something different?

I'm not worried about what the pasture says. I'm more concerned about loosing a loved one.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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18-05-2015, 10:52 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(15-05-2015 04:23 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Again. What would their understanding of RNA, or DNA have anything to do with what I said? Or the questions I asked?

However since I take the time to read and think about yours, i'll be the bigger man.

(15-05-2015 01:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm uncertain as to what your objection is. "Deoxyribonucleic acid" does not exist in ancient Hebrew. Nor do the words adenine, guanine, cytosine and thymine.

I've read in a number your post before that you believe the bible to be Divinely written. That whoever wrote it was simply a medium for the lords divine hand.

If a god who is claimed to be omnipotent can't describe or interpret a word then he can't be omnipotent. If he can't put it succinctly, and demonstrative then he can't be omniscient.

Let's take the English Language for example. We pick up words from other languages and add it to our own. William Shakespeare was known for making up words to convey a point.

Bedroom, Amazement, Laughable. Just some examples.

Which would eventually become part of the English Language. HELL Google is now a word!

So if mere mortals. Can have words that can be interpreted and understood by the masses. Then why can't a god? Heck, he should be even better at it. Right?

If i was talking about making bread. And instead of saying I used Flour, salt, yeast, little bit of water, Bake at 375 degrees for 45 mins (I don't know if this is how long you bake bread don't follow this recipe) And just said "I took some mud from my back yard, and presto!" You would probable eater have some question about my backing skills or wonder how with only one material i could make something completely different.

(15-05-2015 01:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I also never got that the point of the story was how people were created or which mechanisms God used.

You've never wondered about how anything was built?

Now i don't know much if anything about your personal life. Besides your a caring father, and loving husband, that has done misson work. Your personal life is your own. But..

Have you ever built something before? A computer, car, a school project?

Or ever seen a really awesome magic trick and wonder how the magician fooled you?

We're a inquisitive species. We like figuring stuff out. How to build bigger buildings, how to make ships to get us to the moon, things that can tell us time. Why wouldn't we wonder about a story about a "deity" Making a human being from "clay" But when we look at the human bodyit's 70%water not 70% clay, or dust or whatever else beside, what it is.

(15-05-2015 01:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I got (as have most people I've discussed the story with) that Genesis 2-3 has to do with man's fall, sin, judgment and etc. Perhaps you have a different understanding?

My understanding is it never happened.

(15-05-2015 01:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  With what standard are you judging this story?

My standard as a story teller, and reader.

(15-05-2015 01:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1) Are you saying God shouldn't have used carbon atoms as the base of the mix to make a man?

I'm not saying anything of the sort. Because i'm saying that your god dosn't exist. Therefore he couldn't have used any material to build anything.

Your bible doesn't even say he used carbon atoms. It says he used dust or clay. You can make all the clams about clay being rich in carbon atoms, or it like the mud in the south but it doesn't change facts. It never happened.

(15-05-2015 01:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2) Are you saying that when you attend a funeral and hear the officiant say, "And to dust his body shall return," you interrupt to interject that when the body rots and decays in the grave it may resemble dust eventually but really is something different?

I'm not worried about what the pasture says. I'm more concerned about loosing a loved one.

I am being honest here, but a few days ago, I thought about what length of discussion would be required to explain God making Adam, not only while explaining atoms, DNA, RNA, cell division, genetics, etc. but the super cool "freakin' laser beam" equipment (a little Austin Powers humor there if you please) or whatever He used to make Adam rapidly, without any gestation--which makes Jesus truly the "second Adam" as Paul wrote, because they are both miracle creations, and Eve unique also with Jesus (a woman from a man and then THE man from a virgin woman) - (see Romans 5 et al) and I felt that would make the Bible a) very long indeed before the third chapter could be completed but as importantly b) would be smoking gun evidence that the Bible was the Word of God, without question, having to be utterly accepted MORE as science evolved rather than LESS as man progressed (as was prophesied by Paul et al) and:

I'm sorry, but God will always leave you JUST enough doubt/rope. IF there is a God, IF there is a Heaven, do you want them in your life now?

I guess I'm saying that if the dust is enough for me (I see dust eventually when specimens die unless they experience fossilization) but not enough for you, we are right where God wants us for NOW. I hope one of us will be different LATER, of course. But don't put off until tomorrow what you ought to do today, please!

As an aside re: Paul and Peter. It is remarkable to me that the ancient world accepted a deluge but the Bible prophesied that later in time, scoffers would mock the Flood and etc. - shouldn't the Bible writers instead have said, "God is always right and no one mocks the deluge"...?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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18-05-2015, 11:17 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(12-05-2015 07:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm saying none of those and I apologize for any confusion I've caused you.

Restating: The Bible contains admonishments for Christians to do the right thing. Women in general struggle to submit to their husbands. Not their friends, employers or say, the police, so much. Men struggle to show enough love, agape love and otherwise, to their wives. We all know and should freely admit that our poorest expressions of character often enter the home. Men will say and do the right things all day at work then come home and for varied reasons will not show love and appreciation to their wives.

I haven't found that women lack the showing of love to their husbands. But they do struggle with submission. The fact that they are being exhorted to submit of their free will shows the opposite of a domineering patriarchal view.

It looks like you're still saying the same thing, so I'll ask the same thing, restated:

You say women, in general, struggle with submission. Are men also supposed to submit to their wives, or is it just women who are supposed to submit. If it is both, are you saying women have more trouble with this than men?

You say that men struggle to show love to their wives. On what do you base that men have this trouble and that women do not?
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18-05-2015, 12:43 PM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
I will definitely be adding this to my children's collection of kids bibles.

Next problem to solve: Avoiding divorce. Big Grin
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19-05-2015, 10:25 AM
RE: Awkward Moments Children's Bible
(18-05-2015 11:17 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(12-05-2015 07:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm saying none of those and I apologize for any confusion I've caused you.

Restating: The Bible contains admonishments for Christians to do the right thing. Women in general struggle to submit to their husbands. Not their friends, employers or say, the police, so much. Men struggle to show enough love, agape love and otherwise, to their wives. We all know and should freely admit that our poorest expressions of character often enter the home. Men will say and do the right things all day at work then come home and for varied reasons will not show love and appreciation to their wives.

I haven't found that women lack the showing of love to their husbands. But they do struggle with submission. The fact that they are being exhorted to submit of their free will shows the opposite of a domineering patriarchal view.

It looks like you're still saying the same thing, so I'll ask the same thing, restated:

You say women, in general, struggle with submission. Are men also supposed to submit to their wives, or is it just women who are supposed to submit. If it is both, are you saying women have more trouble with this than men?

You say that men struggle to show love to their wives. On what do you base that men have this trouble and that women do not?

Robby, you may be a very loving husband, personally. May I recommend a book for further study? "Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus". Celebrate the differences, brother! If you are unaware that in general, not perhaps, in your case, women are more nurturing and romantic then men... you couldn't possibly be pretending not to know this, right?

And YES, YES, YES, men are to submit to their wives. But for men in that day, and remember, for most of history, men were getting practice submitting to elders, rulers, bosses in the workplace, men in the marketplace, etc. And men were wusses from Adam on up. Men find it EASY to submit. That's why the false preachers you hate get away with their crimes! Where are the men in those churches standing up to these losers?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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