Bad Arguement
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11-03-2012, 08:27 PM
Bad Arguement
Ok I have been told that I am out of line on something and I need some objective views please. This a an argument with my wife and she is the type of believer who does not go to church nor read the bible but still believes in the "Christian" God. Refuses to even discuss religion with me now because she well just doesn't. I married her in a church and was a pretend believer most of my life so no issue. But now I am a open Atheist which of course she hates but we try not to make it a issue. Anyway getting back to the argument. I have an Aunt who knows I am a Atheist and have had some heated debates with. Well she got mad I didn't but she just never would just quit trying to push her religion on me. I had stop talking to her but after my Dad past away I accepted her as a friend on Facebook to try and just agree to disagree. I wouldn't post my views on her Facebook and she wouldn't mine. But she started posting things like I know your Dad is in heaven watching down on you with your grandpa just talking about the good old days. And other similar posts. So I told my wife I don't want to start this with her again but I am tired of her posting about god on my Facebook posts or wall. My wife came back that I was taking things the wrong way. That my aunt was just being polite and meaning well. I said I don't see how when she knows I don't believe for one second my Dad is in a heaven or looking down on me or any of that. She said I was taking things to personal and coming off like a ass. Because I was getting upset of the constant posts about religion when she knows 100% that I am a Atheist. I don't post on her page on everything saying quit believing in ancient voo doo that is all just your imagination. I feel this is gonna become a very huge problem eventually with my wife. I love her we have been together since I was in the 9th grade and she was in the 7th grade. But anymore when I try to talk about things objectively I get the I don't wanna talk about it its just what I believe. I am afraid it my take us to a divorce. Am I over reacting and just not seeing it. Should I be ok with posts about religion directed toward me from family who know I am a Atheist. I would love some thoughts on if I am valid in my being upset about it. Or am I out of line. I need objectivity at this point. Sorry for the rambling on but I am posting this after an argument. I just don't see how I should be the one who has to be cautious of others faith but them not show no respect for my views. Thoughts please.
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11-03-2012, 09:17 PM
RE: Bad Arguement
You have two options here that I can see -

1. To stand your ground and reiterate to your aunt that it's not acceptable to post these things on your facebook page thereby risking another fight (and possible divorce) with your wife. This brings forth another question of 'do you love your life the way it is?' (excluding the religion 'thing') or are you at that stage where you cannot compromise your beliefs?

2. Take it with a grain of salt and just ride with it. Thinking to yourself, 'Oh whatever' Sleepy

If it's 'in your face' constantly it would be hard not to react IMO. I don't envy your position here.

Humankind Dodgy (a total misnomer)
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11-03-2012, 09:48 PM
RE: Bad Arguement
Hmm, religion hasn't been a problem between me and the wife, but it might be a similar situation. She knows that I completely don't believe. I try to be quick, blunt, and unemotional about responding to religion. With your Aunt, maybe you should just unfriend.

If your wife doesn't want to talk about her religion, good. Don't. If she brings it up, then use that time to talk about it. That's pretty much where me and my wife are. Religion isn't a factor in the relationship. It comes up once and a while, and I ask a ton of questions, but she knows I don't believe it. I tell her that too. I'm just curious about religions and hers is odd. I'm still not entirely sure what she believes. I wonder if she does.

Either way, it's not really brought up any more. If she brings up religion, then I either ask more because it's intriguing, or I start in with the analysis. Often times she'll come to a point where she'll say something like "well, I don't 'really' believe that" type thing when something is really preposterous. I don't even really say it is.. well, not really. Just kind of say it over and over because it's silly, then she responds with that. She hasn't brought up religion in a while. She goes to ceremonies here and there, but not to the point she did when we were in the States.

Defy gravity... stand up. Drinking Beverage
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11-03-2012, 10:51 PM
RE: Bad Arguement
If you think your marriage is worth saving, my thought, like Cranium said, is to unfriend your aunt so you're not faced with the source of irritation. But, I might also suggest you go one step further and remove yourself from Facebook all together. That's what I did. I was tired of unfriending people all the time and realized if I unfriended everyone who was a believer, I'd be left with such a small list that it wouldn't be worth it for me to stay there any longer.

But that's me.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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11-03-2012, 11:01 PM
RE: Bad Arguement
Just think of facebook as the ultimate source of spam. I have an account but I rarely look at it, because most everyone's posts on there will bother me from time to time. People talk about way too much and there is a lot of generalization. If it's bothering you ignore the program. Erxomai is most correct in suggesting the main problem could be more facebook than your aunt. My religious family members don't make direct religious statements to me when in person, but they do online.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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12-03-2012, 02:48 AM
RE: Bad Arguement
Bah, it's late, I rambled. TL;DR at the bottom.

Facebook isn't full of spam for me. It actually augments my relationships pretty well. Sometimes TMI, but that's when you just compartmentalize.

It's hard to deal with people creating drama on your wall sometimes. I had to decide pretty rapidly that if something crazy dramatic were going down, I would address it with the involved parties and delete posts as I needed to make my own space presentable. I have the ultimate veto power over what people put there, and as a last resort I'll use it. But there's something to be said for brushing off somebody's comment and just letting it stand without reply.

But that's the aunt relationship, which is not nearly as important as the wife one. If I were in that position--and believe you me I have never been married and have not had to deal with your situation, so take what I say with a grain of salt--but if it were me I'd want to honestly address the question of whether your relationship with each other is more important, to her, than you believing what SHE thinks, and whether it is more important to you than her believing what YOU think. If you can both be okay believing separate things, then there's no reason not to get along without trying to resolve to one side or the other, right? But if one of you thinks that being right is more important, that's going to lead to bitterness, discord, and resentment. And if it's just she doesn't want to talk about it? Well, you gotta figure out how important you think it is to talk about. If it's really important to you, she ought to know that. If it isn't, drop it and make her happy.

Oh, and as someone who takes things personal and is an ass, I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You're taking it too personal and coming off as an ass. However, the way to fix that is to try to explain to your aunt that what she's doing is offending you and please, for your sake, stop. And if that doesn't work, you can only ignore her or continue to be an ass (because that means she isn't actually being polite).

TL;DR: If you think you're being an ass, you probably are. Either come to terms with the fact that other people agreeing with you is really important, and then explain that to them, or let it slide.
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12-03-2012, 03:23 AM
RE: Bad Arguement
Regarding your aunt. It is hard to say without knowing your aunt. Is she the sort that is just saying it harmlessly and may genuinely not realise, if so speak to her. If she is a lot more brash and is doing it purposely then it may be just best to un-friend her. She may be saying it as much to comfort herself as anything. Maybe now your dad is gone she feels some sort of obligation towards you and your spiritual well being is where she has identified that you need help. If this is more likely then I think a polite chat is the best course, as she isn't actually being rude until you request her to stop it. Personally, if it is only on facebook then I would just let it go and put it down to my nutty old aunt, and pay no attention as I would not let the views of someone else (especially ones I am so far removed from) affect my marriage.

You may also like to point out to your wife how much it is irritating you without bringing religion into it. Losing your dad isn't easy for everyone, we don't want to be reminded regularly, especially in a way that we find disrespectful. Also point out that you would not want anything to come between you and her. At the end of the day, if you love your wife then it is not worth it. If something causes that much upset just both agree that for the good of the relationship you should cut that shit loose. If you can't compromise and put your relationship first, and are more concerned about being right, then you may be sneeking into the realms of behaving like an ass. We all do this out of anger or other emotion, but once we have time to reflect there must be a compromise.

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-03-2012, 06:35 AM
RE: Bad Arguement
(12-03-2012 03:23 AM)Eternal Wrote:  Regarding your aunt. It is hard to say without knowing your aunt. Is she the sort that is just saying it harmlessly and may genuinely not realise, if so speak to her. If she is a lot more brash and is doing it purposely then it may be just best to un-friend her. She may be saying it as much to comfort herself as anything. Maybe now your dad is gone she feels some sort of obligation towards you and your spiritual well being is where she has identified that you need help. If this is more likely then I think a polite chat is the best course, as she isn't actually being rude until you request her to stop it. Personally, if it is only on facebook then I would just let it go and put it down to my nutty old aunt, and pay no attention as I would not let the views of someone else (especially ones I am so far removed from) affect my marriage.

You may also like to point out to your wife how much it is irritating you without bringing religion into it. Losing your dad isn't easy for everyone, we don't want to be reminded regularly, especially in a way that we find disrespectful. Also point out that you would not want anything to come between you and her. At the end of the day, if you love your wife then it is not worth it. If something causes that much upset just both agree that for the good of the relationship you should cut that shit loose. If you can't compromise and put your relationship first, and are more concerned about being right, then you may be sneeking into the realms of behaving like an ass. We all do this out of anger or other emotion, but once we have time to reflect there must be a compromise.

Just go to her facebook page, click on "subscribed" , and select not to see her postings on your wall. She will not know, you won't have to unfriend her.

I have an aunt who is super catholic and she occasionally talks about it and I just ignore it. There are plenty of other things I can talk about with her. She is 83 and she is happy and I am not going to mess with it. When she starts talking about her religion, it's mostly just stuff like what happened at church or - same as yours here - how the rest of the family is all in heaven looking down. I just let that go, it's not directed at changing me, it's just her voicing her thoughts. So, with her I have no issue about it.

I find I react differently to different people. I once had a secretary who needed this or that to get on with life, small things. I was generous and gave them to her. I never even got a "thank you", it was "praise the Lord" instead. And the Lord was responsible for everything good and it popped up all the time. She was a good secretary but I just couldn't stand it anymore and let her go. It distracted me from work and irritated me to no end.

So I find I react differently to different people. Now, the secretary I had to see every day for hours on end, and it was always there. There wasn't a day when the Lord didn't make an appearance. My aunt, I speak to on the phone maybe once a week for 10 minutes, and it only comes up once every other month or so. I can live with that, and I doubt she could live without it.

Then of course you run into people who want to openly convert you and if they don't give up asap I don't stick around, it's just too annoying.

And then there are those (maybe your aunt falls in this category and maybe not) who basically respect you but don't seem to be able to help themselves and keep dropping "conversion hints" here and there, like stories of friends who were saved after finding religion. These I find very irritating also, and whether I continue to deal with them depends on the frequency of this. I can turn a deaf ear to some of this, but some people just annoy me too much with it.

Most people will irritate you one way or another from time to time, and we all have different levels of tolerance. It's not just religion, people have all kinds of annoying habits and opinions. So one just weighs the pros and cons of relating to a person and goes from there.

I find I live better and am happier when I am somewhat flexible. Also, I don't ram my opinions down their throats, and I reasonably expect the same from them. If religion is a big part of their lives, something will slip out here and there. It's all a matter of degree and intent.

Since religion is so very prevalent, one can't just avoid it all together or one will be a hermit. I have considered relocating to a country where it isn't in your face all the time, but decided I like it where I am and I can be selective in who I let into my life.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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12-03-2012, 06:50 AM
RE: Bad Arguement
make your aunt feel guilty, say to her that it really hurts you that she talks about your dad and that kind of stuff because you don't believe in such things, make her feel really bad and she'll stop.

About your wife, take it like a scientist, if she's not trying to convert you then don't give a fuck about it, and when you talk to her about this things try to use it to learn more about her, don't try to convert her either because that would be bad for the relationship.

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12-03-2012, 12:11 PM
RE: Bad Arguement
First off thank you to everyone for your input. I should explain the Aunt situation a little more detailed. This is my Mothers sister and the exwife of my Dad's brother. So she was a double aunt as weird as that is. Anyway she is extremist religious but a total hypocrite. I know this because I know how she acts in public and how she is in private. I have been around her and my cousins since I was a child growing up. All was fine when they thought I was a believer that just wasn't living a Christian life and going to church. So finally about 3 years ago I just told her that I was a Atheist and had been for a very long time. Well that sent out the bat shit crazy mission of hers to save my soul as she put it. She would quote scripture to me and I quoted it back and point out fact based evidence for why it is bullshit. Of course that didn't sway her which I knew it wouldn't but I was hoping she would finally give up on bugging the piss out of me about god. Nope I was so so so wrong. The breaking point was when she started talking to me about my youngest son. He is Autistic and the love of my life. She began to try to ask me if god making my son the way he was made me mad at god and that he was just a different form of another one of gods angels and that god had a plan for him to test my faith but to make it stronger. That his Autism was gods plan for wanting me to become a messenger of his word. Up until that point I didn't take it personal or get upset about debating her about religion or god. But that was the point when I lost it and told her exactly what I thought about her imaginary friend and how much bullshit it was. I told her to stay away from me and not talk to me that we just couldn't communicate if everything was gonna be about religion and I deleted her from my Facebook account to. Well that was over 6 months or so ago. My father passed away just a little over a month ago. She came to the service was polite and respectful and didn't start any shit. A few days after that she sent me another friend request on Facebook and like a fool thinking she would finally respect my views I excepted her. It didn't take long and right back to posting about god on my posts or wall she started again. So this is not even remotely her just being polite from not knowing how I feel about it. So I have just said piss on it I don't need that shit going on to cause problems with my home life. I just deleted her from my Facebook. As for my wife I do love her. I have two boys with her that are my life. My youngest one is Autistic. We have been together for almost 20 years. When I finally told her I was a nonbeliever we did have a argument about it but decided to just not make it a issue. I wouldn't try to change her mind or her mine. And I would say that 95% of the time it isn't a issue for us. But when it does come up if I can't find a neutral ground on a topic I will stick to my views. Which can lead to a argument. So as for my aunt I am just deleting her out of my life in any way I can. My wife well that is a road that has bridges on it that I will look at when I have to cross them as we go. If she was real religious it would be a bigger problem. She is one of those believers that grew up being told about god that hasn't read the bible or goes to church but still chooses to believe in a higher power called god. I sometimes think if I could get her to actually read the bible from start to finish she would see things a lot differently. But anyway thanks for the advice everyone. It is appreciated.
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