Bad Design (or Stupid Design to borrow from NDT)
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30-07-2013, 12:40 AM
RE: Bad Design (or Stupid Design to borrow from NDT)
Quote:Humans both breathe and consume food and water through the Pharynx. This ensures a portion of us will choke to death each year while eating or drinking. This is not a problem in some of our mammalian cousins like dolphins and whales, who have separated respiration and digestive tracts.

I have heard Neil Degrass Tyson make this claim or something to the effect in a lecture and I thought it was stupid. I was surprised he made the comment because I think of him as a very bright and astute person.

Anyways, there is an obvious problem with having a separated respiration and digestive tracks. It requires another orifice. Every orifice is an avenue for bacteria and viruses to enter your body. So while your chances of choking diminish(its conceivable the orifice could become clogged even if it is separate from the digestive track), your chances of getting an infection increase dramatically.

I would bet that most people have had way more sore throats then they have had choking incidents.
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30-07-2013, 12:59 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2013 05:34 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Bad Design (or Stupid Design to borrow from NDT)
(24-07-2013 05:15 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  COSMIC

- Universe is better set up to be a galaxy and black hole graveyard than a generator of life

- Most places in the universe will kill you instantly, cold, heat, radiation, micrometeoroid impacts, black holes, etc.

- Our own twin planet to Earth, Venus, has clouds of CO2 and sulfuric acid, 980°F surface temperatures, and an atmospheric pressure over 90x greater than that found on Earth, which would kill us instantly if we lived there.

- Less than 3% of all hydrogen gas in stellar nurseries will ever become a star.

- Many stars are simply to large, too volatile, or too unstable to allow life to prosper. Solar Flares and Mega Flares could wipe out nearby planets. Excessively large stars can go supernovae (gargantuan thermonuclear explosions in space), producing gamma ray bursts which obliterate their entire solar system and neighboring star systems with them.

- Even stable stars like our Sun age and slowly die. As they do, their heat output slowly increases. Our sun has completed about 5 billion years of its estimated 10 billion year life cycle. In approx 2 billion years, it will be hot enough to boil off the earth’s oceans. In approx 4 billion, it will swell up into a Red Giant, immolating Mercury, Venus and Earth in the process.

- The remnants of our solar system’s Accretion Disk have become a virtual shooting gallery; planets have been peppered with large comet and asteroid impacts, which are believed to have been responsible for at least one mass extinction event on Earth.

- Planetary orbits are unstable over long time periods causing planets to either drift toward or away from the stars they orbit, which could create condition unsuitable for life.

- Galaxies will often collide into other galaxies. Our own galaxy, the Milky Way, is on a collision course with the Andromeda galaxy, which will take place in about 7 billion years from now.

Imagine, for a moment, that life on this planet originated around a deep sea volcanic vent. The earth is young and life only exists around this deep sea vent. If this life was somehow sentient and could carry on intelligent conversation, I'm sure some of those little creatures would be saying, "It's silly to think that God designed this world. Here we are huddle around this vent, surrounded by a vast, hostile ocean.

Fast forward an eon. Life has evolved and now populates the entire ocean. The conversations would be pretty much the same. You might hear one saying, "It's silly to think that God designed this world. Here we are huddled in this ocean surrounded by a vast hostile atmosphere"

Fast forward another eon. Life has evolved even further and now populates the ocean, and the land, and the atmosphere. And we hear creatures saying, "It's silly to think that God designed this world. Here we are huddled on this planet surrounded by a vast hostile universe."

You know maybe one of God's goals is to provide challenges to life, so that life can meet those challenges....and conquer them. When I hear arguments that universe isn't designed for life, I tend to think the authors of those arguments are taking a very narrow and short sighted view.
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30-07-2013, 05:22 AM
RE: Bad Design (or Stupid Design to borrow from NDT)
There are so many things that could be done better and that's just with our eyes.

In our eyes there is a network of blood vessels IN FRONT OF the retina to keep it nourished. This of course is filtered out by software configuration in our brain. I would like to do what eagles do with their eyes. That is amazing.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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30-07-2013, 01:20 PM
RE: Bad Design (or Stupid Design to borrow from NDT)
(30-07-2013 12:59 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Imagine, for a moment, that life on this planet originated around a deep sea volcanic vent. The earth is young and life only exists around this deep sea vent. If this life was somehow sentient and could carry on intelligent conversation, I'm sure some of those little creatures would be saying, "It's silly to think that God designed this world. Here we are huddle around this vent, surrounded by a vast, hostile ocean.

Fast forward an eon. Life has evolved and now populates the entire ocean. The conversations would be pretty much the same. You might hear one saying, "It's silly to think that God designed this world. Here we are huddled in this ocean surrounded by a vast hostile atmosphere"

Fast forward another eon. Life has evolved even further and now populates the ocean, and the land, and the atmosphere. And we hear creatures saying, "It's silly to think that God designed this world. Here we are huddled on this planet surrounded by a vast hostile universe."

You know maybe one of God's goals is to provide challenges to life, so that life can meet those challenges....and conquer them. When I hear arguments that universe isn't designed for life, I tend to think the authors of those arguments are taking a very narrow and short sighted view.

That's not intelligent design; it's deism. It's examining the structure of the universe, not individual species.

And if the Earth was suitable for life to evolve, then countless other planets are as well.

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30-07-2013, 06:16 PM
RE: Bad Design (or Stupid Design to borrow from NDT)
(30-07-2013 12:29 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Rub one out in the shower and bacteria that inhabit the sewer will eat it up. Living things decompose and are either consumed or release their nutrients back into the soil.

Because those specific species of bacteria have evolved to fill that niche. Just like the 150 different species that live in your mouth, and the 200 different species that live in your stomach.

Even if irrefutable proof of design could be found (like a Thumbsup image on a DNA strand, perhaps), wouldn't it seem amazingly coincidental that the designer would just so happen to be the one god that you believe in? Of all of the thousands of gods, and all of the personal variations of how they're each perceived, how fortuitous of you to have picked the correct one.

Unbelievable. (And I mean that literally.)

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23-09-2013, 04:35 PM
RE: Bad Design (or Stupid Design to borrow from NDT)
No matter whether you believe in evolution without God pr creation with God, we are limited in our understanding of the past by what we can experience through observation and historical data (which happens to be affected by our worldview). No one claims to have a written history of what was occurring 1,000,000+ years ago. Many claims are made based on what we assume happened, but we cannot return to the past to verify with our own eyes.

I know that this post will not be popular, however, it must be stated that all information is not included in this article. According to those who believe in a Creator God (myself included), God created a universe, world, life, etc. within six days. The only rule He had was that Adam and Eve not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Now I know that because we are on The Thinking Atheist Forum, many would immediately disagree with that thought, but bear with me.

After Adam and Eve disobeyed, things changed. Death and judgment entered the picture. So according to the Christian belief, this argument of "stupid design" actually points toward a fallen creation, which is recorded in the first 5 chapters of Genesis. Follow that with the "Great Deluge" or Noah's flood, and even greater changes in our atmosphere and earth take place. This is exactly what a believer in God would expect to encounter. The Thinking Atheist Forum sees this information as proof that an Intelligent Designer never existed, when I look at this and say we messed up. This does not refute the Bible. It strengthens its validity in my eyes. The Grand Canyon, the Cambrian Explosion, etc. I know I am just a crazy Creationist, but I don't see where it disagrees with my belief. Perhaps someone can set me straight and refute that. I am opened to observable evidence! I just have a hard time seeing it the way many on this forum do.
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24-09-2013, 07:01 AM
RE: Bad Design (or Stupid Design to borrow from NDT)
(23-09-2013 04:35 PM)Mistake90 Wrote:  No matter whether you believe in evolution without God pr creation with God, we are limited in our understanding of the past by what we can experience through observation and historical data (which happens to be affected by our worldview). No one claims to have a written history of what was occurring 1,000,000+ years ago. Many claims are made based on what we assume happened, but we cannot return to the past to verify with our own eyes.

I know that this post will not be popular, however, it must be stated that all information is not included in this article. According to those who believe in a Creator God (myself included), God created a universe, world, life, etc. within six days. The only rule He had was that Adam and Eve not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Now I know that because we are on The Thinking Atheist Forum, many would immediately disagree with that thought, but bear with me.

After Adam and Eve disobeyed, things changed. Death and judgment entered the picture. So according to the Christian belief, this argument of "stupid design" actually points toward a fallen creation, which is recorded in the first 5 chapters of Genesis. Follow that with the "Great Deluge" or Noah's flood, and even greater changes in our atmosphere and earth take place. This is exactly what a believer in God would expect to encounter. The Thinking Atheist Forum sees this information as proof that an Intelligent Designer never existed, when I look at this and say we messed up. This does not refute the Bible. It strengthens its validity in my eyes. The Grand Canyon, the Cambrian Explosion, etc. I know I am just a crazy Creationist, but I don't see where it disagrees with my belief. Perhaps someone can set me straight and refute that. I am opened to observable evidence! I just have a hard time seeing it the way many on this forum do.

"After Adam and Eve disobeyed, things changed."

"...tree of knowledge of good and evil."

How did they know that to disobey was evil, or bad, or morally wrong if no sin existed beforehand?

"Death and judgment entered the picture."

So there was no death beforehand? Animals like lions didn't eat meat? They don't appear very intelligently designed to eat plants so...

"So according to the Christian belief, this argument of "stupid design" actually points toward a fallen creation, which is recorded in the first 5 chapters of Genesis."

There are also 2 creation stories of man within the first 2 chapters.

And Adam and Eve had 2 sons, no? Who did they impregnate?

"Follow that with the "Great Deluge" or Noah's flood, and even greater changes in our atmosphere and earth take place."

How do you know this? Please elaborate as to what these "changes in out atmosphere and Earth" were.

"The Grand Canyon, the Cambrian Explosion, etc. I know I am just a crazy Creationist, but I don't see where it disagrees with my belief."

How does it agree? The Grand Canyon took millions of years to form and the Cambrian Explosion took place over millions of years and was primarily restricted to the marine realm of life and involved organisms that no one ever knew existed until the 1800's.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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24-09-2013, 07:20 AM
RE: Bad Design (or Stupid Design to borrow from NDT)
(23-09-2013 04:35 PM)Mistake90 Wrote:  No matter whether you believe in evolution without God pr creation with God, we are limited in our understanding of the past by what we can experience through observation and historical data (which happens to be affected by our worldview). No one claims to have a written history of what was occurring 1,000,000+ years ago. Many claims are made based on what we assume happened, but we cannot return to the past to verify with our own eyes.

I know that this post will not be popular, however, it must be stated that all information is not included in this article. According to those who believe in a Creator God (myself included), God created a universe, world, life, etc. within six days. The only rule He had was that Adam and Eve not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Now I know that because we are on The Thinking Atheist Forum, many would immediately disagree with that thought, but bear with me.

After Adam and Eve disobeyed, things changed. Death and judgment entered the picture. So according to the Christian belief, this argument of "stupid design" actually points toward a fallen creation, which is recorded in the first 5 chapters of Genesis. Follow that with the "Great Deluge" or Noah's flood, and even greater changes in our atmosphere and earth take place. This is exactly what a believer in God would expect to encounter. The Thinking Atheist Forum sees this information as proof that an Intelligent Designer never existed, when I look at this and say we messed up. This does not refute the Bible. It strengthens its validity in my eyes. The Grand Canyon, the Cambrian Explosion, etc. I know I am just a crazy Creationist, but I don't see where it disagrees with my belief. Perhaps someone can set me straight and refute that. I am opened to observable evidence! I just have a hard time seeing it the way many on this forum do.

Your beliefs are without evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-09-2013, 05:18 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2013 05:26 PM by Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver.)
RE: Bad Design (or Stupid Design to borrow from NDT)
(23-09-2013 04:35 PM)Mistake90 Wrote:  No matter whether you believe in evolution without God pr creation with God, we are limited in our understanding of the past by what we can experience through observation and historical data (which happens to be affected by our worldview). No one claims to have a written history of what was occurring 1,000,000+ years ago. Many claims are made based on what we assume happened, but we cannot return to the past to verify with our own eyes.

I know that this post will not be popular, however, it must be stated that all information is not included in this article. According to those who believe in a Creator God (myself included), God created a universe, world, life, etc. within six days. The only rule He had was that Adam and Eve not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Now I know that because we are on The Thinking Atheist Forum, many would immediately disagree with that thought, but bear with me.

After Adam and Eve disobeyed, things changed. Death and judgment entered the picture. So according to the Christian belief, this argument of "stupid design" actually points toward a fallen creation, which is recorded in the first 5 chapters of Genesis. Follow that with the "Great Deluge" or Noah's flood, and even greater changes in our atmosphere and earth take place. This is exactly what a believer in God would expect to encounter. The Thinking Atheist Forum sees this information as proof that an Intelligent Designer never existed, when I look at this and say we messed up. This does not refute the Bible. It strengthens its validity in my eyes. The Grand Canyon, the Cambrian Explosion, etc. I know I am just a crazy Creationist, but I don't see where it disagrees with my belief. Perhaps someone can set me straight and refute that. I am opened to observable evidence! I just have a hard time seeing it the way many on this forum do.

And this is a classic example of how you have to twist your holy book up like a pretzel to make it conform with observable evidence yet cosmology and evolution by natural selection can explain it so simply yet so elegantly.

We don't have the remains of vegetarian velociraptors dated 6000 years old to bolster your claims. We don't have examples of the remains of 900 year old humans that can verify biblical claims. We don't have the remains of a stadium sized wooden boat on Mt Ararat or evidence that the moon radiates light from within or that trees existed before the sun did! THAT, sir, and thousands of other examples like that, are why I can't give the bible one shred of credibility.

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24-09-2013, 05:48 PM
RE: Bad Design (or Stupid Design to borrow from NDT)
(29-07-2013 03:10 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(24-07-2013 05:34 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  My favorite "cosmic" goof for "fine tuned for life".
The average lifespan of a Black Hole is 100 times that of a star.
That means for .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 (1^-80) of the life of the universe, there will be no life in the universe. Not exactly "fine tuned" for life.

Black holes emit radiation in the form of Hawking's radiation and in the case of binary black hole systems, gravity waves. In terms of the life span of the universe, Blackholes are like batteries releasing their energy slowly while stars release it quickly...like capacitors.

Who is to say that when all the stars are gone life won't someday flourish in the relative warmth of a black hole?

Who's to say, some day, you might actually say something intelligent.
As usual you missed the point. The POINT was the known timeline, not a speculative possibility. A Pink Monkey may die on a cross and save you some day also.

It's hawking Radiation, not Hawking's Radiation, and as of now, it has not been confirmed as having been observed in space. It's predicted, but not confirmed. A couple groups have claimed they have observed a similar phenomenon in the lab.
http://www.technologyreview.com/view/420...radiation/

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