Basis for Atheist Morality
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17-02-2014, 10:28 PM
RE: Basis for Atheist Morality
Is this necroposting?


Hypothetical for the OP.


If there was a universe exactly like this one, including that it was created by the same god as you believe created this one, with the only exception is that there are zero sentient beings in it, does morality still exist in that universe?

If you answer yes, how would it manifest, and why would your deist god put it there?

If you answer no, congratulations, you just figured out that a god is not necessary for morality.
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18-02-2014, 01:50 AM
RE: Basis for Atheist Morality
(17-02-2014 10:28 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  Is this necroposting?

No, the OP is dated less than a week from your post; and the last one before you was only 3 days.

Go trudging through the archives for something from 2011 and then we'll get on you about necroposting.

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18-02-2014, 09:28 AM
RE: Basis for Atheist Morality
(17-02-2014 10:28 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  Is this necroposting?

Hopefully! Big Grin


Quote:Hypothetical for the OP.


If there was a universe exactly like this one, including that it was created by the same god as you believe created this one, with the only exception is that there are zero sentient beings in it, does morality still exist in that universe?

If you answer yes, how would it manifest, and why would your deist god put it there?

If you answer no, congratulations, you just figured out that a god is not necessary for morality.

Nice. Thumbsup

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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20-02-2014, 07:39 PM
RE: Basis for Atheist Morality
(17-02-2014 10:28 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  Is this necroposting?


Hypothetical for the OP.


If there was a universe exactly like this one, including that it was created by the same god as you believe created this one, with the only exception is that there are zero sentient beings in it, does morality still exist in that universe?

If you answer yes, how would it manifest, and why would your deist god put it there?

If you answer no, congratulations, you just figured out that a god is not necessary for morality.

I would say yes, morality still would exist, it would just be largely irrelevant because there wouldn't be any moral agents. Just like the number 7 would still exist, even if there were no one present to count.
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20-02-2014, 07:42 PM
RE: Basis for Atheist Morality
....but then again you're a fucking nutjob who believes in a magical alien creating the universe.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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20-02-2014, 07:55 PM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2014 09:21 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Basis for Atheist Morality
(20-02-2014 07:39 PM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  I would say yes, morality still would exist, it would just be largely irrelevant because there wouldn't be any moral agents. Just like the number 7 would still exist, even if there were no one present to count.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

If morality is "from your deity", and "logically consistent", then "something about it" *exists* (and obviously always HAD to) apart from your deity. If it "just springs" sui generis from your deity, then your deity is capricious.
Either way, you're screwed.
In the first instance, your deity didn't (and couldn't have ) created it, if it didn't "have a reason" for doing it the way it did. If it did, what was that reason, and where did the deity get it, (the reason) ?
In the second, there was was NOTHING "objective" for your deity to "reference" in the creation of your (so called) "objective morality", (or it had to have existed already in Reality). In both instances, there MUST be *something* your deity is referencing to MAKE ("objective") morality "objective".
Oops you didn't really think this through, did you, NotLookingForAnswers ?
Projecting (anthropomorphizing) the ethical systems which Social Science KNOWS evolved to promote survival, does your cause no good, NRLFA. Assuming what works on planet Earth is a universal in the universe is really rather parochial.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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20-02-2014, 09:08 PM
RE: Basis for Atheist Morality
I asked a friend just now what morals he gets from GOD that I don't get ?
After a little brain gymnastics, apparently I have GOD's morals as well but don't realise it.
So why are Atheists immoral if they still have GOD's morals ?
waiting.....

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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21-02-2014, 11:19 AM
Basis for Atheist Morality
I was confused by the cognitive dissonance between:
<Morality is rationally apparent as a reasonable course of action>
And
<Morality only comes from God, without God human beings are amoral, without fear of eternal punishment no moral principles exist and no one has ethics>

Until I realized in every instance where someone expressed the latter viewpoint, I was talking to someone who had a serious problem adhering to ethics without an external leviathan, and didn't see how anyone else could without.

Without getting too far into nature vs nurture, is it possible some people are simply born immoral, and can't perceive moral action without a guidebook?

Dexter morality? According to Christianity, all humans are born sociopaths, and the most vocal proponents of God-Derived Morality (in my experience) exhibited sociopathic behavior.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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21-02-2014, 01:17 PM
RE: Basis for Atheist Morality
(21-02-2014 11:19 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  ... human beings are amoral, without fear of eternal punishment no moral principles exist and no one has ethics>

I think human beings are amoral. I think all animals are amoral.
Morality is an oxymoron. It completely collapses under scrutiny.

Although some humans have fear of eternal punishment, it actually negates morality. Taking action to avoid punishment equates to being coerced and this nullifies morality. Morality requires that a person has choice and free will to decide whether to behave good or bad. But doing good to avoid eternal torture nullifies the good action. It would be like being forced at gun point to give money to a homeless person. Giving the money would count as an act of survival rather than an act of moral principles.

Moral truths don't exist but people often have moral beliefs thus their moral principles are built on beliefs rather than truths. This means that moral principles exist as a concept rather than as a truth.
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