Because I'm a Potatoe
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30-05-2011, 08:15 PM
RE: Because I'm a Potatoe
@Celestus

Well if you follow Penn and Teller, you already know that Greenpeace has become an anti-corporation terrorist organization to the point where the founder of GP left in disgust.




"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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30-05-2011, 09:27 PM
 
RE: Because I'm a Potatoe
Stark, thank you for a very decent presentation on this topic. It makes a great deal of sense especially with regard to the selective discrimination between weeds and plants. Pagans, especially those that garden, know exactly what you're talking about.
Personally, no weed killers have ever been used on my property. Even when we had a garden.

And please tell me Penn & Teller are not the font of truth for this, or any serious matter. "Bullshit". Yes, I feel I'm forewarned. Smile

Debunking Penn and Teller's Bullshit! 9-11 episode
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30-05-2011, 09:36 PM
RE: Because I'm a Potatoe
Genetically modified organisms and food products are good, nothing is wrong with them. The problem lies with us. With the nature of humans. Before we can fully appreciate the benefits of GMOs, we need to pass the intellectual immaturity of out species.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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31-05-2011, 12:11 AM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2011 02:34 AM by Buddy Christ.)
RE: Because I'm a Potatoe
(30-05-2011 09:27 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  Stark, thank you for a very decent presentation on this topic. It makes a great deal of sense especially with regard to the selective discrimination between weeds and plants. Pagans, especially those that garden, know exactly what you're talking about.
Personally, no weed killers have ever been used on my property. Even when we had a garden.

And please tell me Penn & Teller are not the font of truth for this, or any serious matter. "Bullshit". Yes, I feel I'm forewarned. Smile

Debunking Penn and Teller's Bullshit! 9-11 episode


P and T present the atheist Libertarian view of every issue, which I generally agree with. Strangely, the "debunking" page won't load for me.


So, are people here saying that they AGREE with the anti-GE fundamentalists in this scenario? Organically grown crops CANNOT produce the amount of food we need to feed the world. If it's possible to make a "frost proof" vegetable or a product whose output is 5 times that of normal, why are you against it? The human body adapts and protects itself quite efficiently, so why this concern for lingering chemicals?

Especially with our attempts to mass produce ethanol taking up more and more of our crop space. They're even expanding the experiments for Algae based biofuels.


EDIT: I read through the thread and realized that I just restated what has already been offered and contributed nothing of value. You know what? Screw it, I'm just gonna leave it posted. I like looking at my own text anyways.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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31-05-2011, 12:21 AM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2011 12:34 AM by Observer.)
RE: Because I'm a Potatoe
@GassyKitten
Great signature Big Grin

Newsflash!

The potato field was indeed a test on blight resistant potatoes. 80% of the field was saved (I guess they accepted Jee-bus Smile) and the research can continue. The research is conducted by the university of Ghent and funded by the democraticaly(*) chosen Flemish government (my tax money Confused). It is by no means comparable to the practices of Monsatan... sorry, Monsanto. The FLF (field liberation front) is now targeting a project of GM poplar in the neighbourhood. I believe these poplars are designed to give twice as much biofuel when processed. The loss on the potatoefield is one year. If they ruin the poplars the setback would be much larger.
(*) You decide whether that makes the research a democratically endorsed process or not.

@Stark Raving

A real interesting post. I love the concept of biofarming. I think balance is a good thing.
What concerns me about biofarming is the following.
I think that within the coming 50 years population in cities will rise. The time of cheap gasoline is over and more and more people will leave the countryside and will live closer to their jobs and other resources.
Can biofarming be done on such large scale that it suits such scenario? Isn't GMO one of the major keys (along with, let's say, moderation)?

Observer

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Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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31-05-2011, 02:31 AM
RE: Because I'm a Potatoe
(31-05-2011 12:21 AM)The_observer Wrote:  
@Stark Raving

A real interesting post. I love the concept of biofarming. I think balance is a good thing.
What concerns me about biofarming is the following.
I think that within the coming 50 years population in cities will rise. The time of cheap gasoline is over and more and more people will leave the countryside and will live closer to their jobs and other resources.
Can biofarming be done on such large scale that it suits such scenario? Isn't GMO one of the major keys (along with, let's say, moderation)?

Well, it's tough to answer, since it's tough to say what will happen as the population increases. There's some who think that as the population rises, more people will be looking to leave the city, in the hopes of being a part of the food indusrty, which is suddenly making alot more money since the value of food, especially produce, will skyrocket.
Also, biodiversity doesn't need to be done on a large scale. Instead, a different mentality towards farming is needed. You see right now, when we think of a homestead farmer, working a 60 acre farm, we imagine an old fashioned type of farm. That's not nescessarily the case. If we think of it in terms of a modern small business, that can be lucritively managed by a single family, there will be greater appeal. By using modern methods, applying biodiversity, learning how to make natural processes work for you, and yes, by using technology like GMOs when it's beneficial, it will become easy to attract people back to the farm. In fact many would love to be farmers, but think that it's just not possible without millions of dollars and thousands of acres. So When you think of sustainable farming being done on a large enough scale, think in terms of large co-ops, owned and operated by many farmers, who all run small, biodiverse farms. That would mean farmers getting a fair price for their food, consumers paying a fair price, and a large increase in food production over all.

You'll never meet a farmer that does things this way that wants to grow bio-fuel. It's a waste of land on a frightening scale, and this biofuel is completely unneccessary. Solar power, wind power, why the hell do people want to look for new ways to burn stuff for fuel?? Already, the technology for solar power is pretty good, and will only get better as the demand for it increases. One day, I hope the standrd for roofing isn't shingles, but solar panels. Almost any home could supply it's own electricity if it's entire roof was a solar collector, and that includes the energy required to run an electric car. The money we spend on GMO research (in my opinion) would be better spent on these energy sources, that way we can stop growing corn on thousands of acres to make ethanol, that is inefficient, but agri-business grows it anyways, becaue it's heavily subsidized (with YOUR money)

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31-05-2011, 03:01 AM
RE: Because I'm a Potatoe
(30-05-2011 09:27 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  Stark, thank you for a very decent presentation on this topic. It makes a great deal of sense especially with regard to the selective discrimination between weeds and plants. Pagans, especially those that garden, know exactly what you're talking about.
Personally, no weed killers have ever been used on my property. Even when we had a garden.

Exactly! I always shake my head when I see people out on their lawns spraying herbicides to kill dandelions. At my house, we let them grow. First it's pleasing to look out my window and see a yard full of pretty yellow flowers. Secong, since we don't use herbicides or pesticides, we can use the dandilions as a food source. my kids are constantly asking me to make dandilion fritters! If you've never tried them, I highly recommend them. Delicious treat, and dandilions have more vitamin C that oranges, more iron than spinach, and more vitamin A that carrots!
If you allow nettle to grow freely, you'll never need to worry about aphids destroying your garden (Lady bugs eat aphids in huge quantities, and Lady Bugs ONLY lay their eggs on nettle)
If you grow lemon balm (an easy to grow herb) you won't have to worry about spraying for mosquitoes. (Lemon balm repels mosquitoes, plus it makes the tastiest chicken you'll ever eat)
If you grow Chamomile, virtually all the bugs that could destroy a garden will be kept under control. (Chamomile is one of the best flowers for attracting predatory insects. They eat harmful insects, and act as a natural "herbicide, all the while leaving chemicals out of your food, and also, chamomile makes a great tea)
All these are but a few examples of how biodiversity can eliminate the need for chemical comtrols and increase harvests. And, as a bonus, they reduce the amount of work we need to do. (I just take the seeds from these and other plants, toss them everywhere, and between the good insects they attract, and the chickens who pick off bugs by the thousands, I never even notice insect damage on my veggies)
This is all applying knowledge (aka technology) in a way that insures myland can produce food indefinitely.

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31-05-2011, 03:54 AM
RE: Because I'm a Potatoe
I understand that biofarming relies heavily on diversity in your farm. but isn't that a tricky thing to rely on? you don't have much control over whether you attract enough ladybugs to control you aphids for example. Is there some kind of "critical mass" (weird term in this context Smile) you need in e.g. the size of land you use? Or the type of weather you need?

By father used to have a hobby garden. He was very dedicated to it and really good informed. After a while he gave up. Maggots in the carrots (makes them bitter). Fly-larvae in the leek. Mildew on the potato. I remember the stuff he grew as utter CRAP to eat. (I'm still recovering mentally from the spinach experience. It could have to do with my mother's cooking abilities as well Big Grin Also, when the salad was ready to eat, you ate salad until it started to ooze out of your ears.)

I am still believing that it can be possible to grow tasty vegetables in a natural environment but I have yet to see it. I have some serious panaché about it.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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31-05-2011, 04:25 AM
 
RE: Because I'm a Potatoe
(30-05-2011 08:15 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  


That's a Carl Sagan's billion, with a "B"!

That line made me laugh.

The video says things that I agree with but the entire tone of it reminds me of preachers. I believe that the less spit your excrete while speaking, the more valid your opinion will seem.

All I could think while watching it was "Praise science. Accept science into your hearts. Science will save you. Hallelujah!" Dodgy
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31-05-2011, 09:43 AM
RE: Because I'm a Potatoe
(31-05-2011 03:54 AM)The_observer Wrote:  I understand that biofarming relies heavily on diversity in your farm. but isn't that a tricky thing to rely on? you don't have much control over whether you attract enough ladybugs to control you aphids for example. Is there some kind of "critical mass" (weird term in this context Smile) you need in e.g. the size of land you use? Or the type of weather you need?

By father used to have a hobby garden. He was very dedicated to it and really good informed. After a while he gave up. Maggots in the carrots (makes them bitter). Fly-larvae in the leek. Mildew on the potato. I remember the stuff he grew as utter CRAP to eat. (I'm still recovering mentally from the spinach experience. It could have to do with my mother's cooking abilities as well Big Grin Also, when the salad was ready to eat, you ate salad until it started to ooze out of your ears.)

I am still believing that it can be possible to grow tasty vegetables in a natural environment but I have yet to see it. I have some serious panaché about it.

Excellent questions. (I expect nothing less from you Observer).
The beauty of permacuture/bio-diverse farming/sustainable farming Is that it's not tricky at all to rely on. The less you mess with it, the better it will do. For example, ladybugs don't need to be attracted per se. They will populate, and balance their population themselves. All the insect population will balance if left alone. That means that yes, sometimes you'll get carrot maggots that are heavy enough to destroy the crop, but since carrots are a small percentage of what you're growing (as are all the specific plants) it will not decimate your entire harvest. The carrot maggots thrive when it's a relatively wet year, so the plants that like it wet will thrive.
Sometimes the most careful, attentive gardener is his own worst enemy. When you encourage the weakest plants to grow, mother nature is removed from the equation, resulting in weak plants. Let the weak ones go. They will fertilize the soil providing nutrients for the strong ones. Then when you use the seed from the strong ones next year, you'll have more strong plants. That's science and evolution at it's best. And we have the knowledge to manipulate that to speed the process. The problem is when we fight the carrot maggots instead of encouraging carrots that are resistant to them. That's where I see GMO coming into the picture. And if we stand up and tell our government that we do not approve of patenting these GM plants then a few things will happen.
First, GMO research will be left to government organizations, and made available to everyone, instead of the research being done by big business who will keep it for themselves to make a profit (and rightly so. That's exactly what a business should do).
Second, the research will be aimed at what is desirable to the populace instead of industry. Again, this makes the research both more advantageous to the majority, and available to those that paid for it (ie the taxpayers)
Third, having this available to everyone will bring down the big business. A monopoly is beneficial to the one who holds it, and everyone else suffers. We've let this happen with the food industry, and it's time to turn things around.

As for evidence and being skeptical? GOOD! You should be. That's what makes you a thinker. You've only got evidence that indicates that it's difficult, and largely unsuccessful from your dads garden. Come and visit me anytime, and I'll show you hard, indisputable evidence that it can be done, and done easily. I am what I refer to as "a lazy farmer". The more work nature does for me, the less I have to do myself. So I do little, and get to sit in the hammock and watch my plants flourish. I constantly hear comments about how rich and flavorful my veggies are. They taste great, have WAY more nutrients in them, and when I tell people that I charge the same as the grocery store for them, they nearly faint. I'm told that they would happily pay twice the price, and yet I make a better profit than the farmers who sell to the grocery store by far.

This doesn't mean I do nothing, and get a great harvest. But what I do do, I do in moderation, and I am always considering what would happen if I did nothing. What I do is help out the garden instead of force it to grow. I knock down tall weeds that will shade my veggies. I plant what I want to eat, but I do it among the plants that are native to my soil. I encourage moisture retention by leaving all that isn't eaten on the ground where it came from. Basically, I try to mimick the natural way things would happen, then I use knowledge and science to give it all a boost. And here's the kicker: I do it all with nothing but a shovel, a rake, and a hoe. No machinery. I don't need it. All machinery does is cost me money that I could otherwise use to make my families life better. It keeps me healthy, brings me money, and provides me with joy and a sense of accomplishment. There's LOTS of people who would gladly do this if they just knew how. Unfortunately, our government teaches them to factory farm, because factory farming benefits big business. And when was the last time you contributed millions in campaign dollars? Well big business does it all the time, so obviously politicians are going to protect the interest of those contributors.

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