Becoming The Demon
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06-05-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: Becoming The Demon
(06-05-2013 02:35 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(06-05-2013 02:31 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I've no doubt he is taking seriously. What sane person wouldn't? I was just providing my perspective.

I won't think less of Mis if he does it, but I will judge him. We don't live under a regime where the proclamation of "Only god can judge me" reigns supreme. I'll judge him. It says something about him. That is the point.

If it's any consolation, I don't mind judgment - be it negative or positive. Judging is human nature. Every one of us does it in regard to something.

So it just comes down to how you are going to live your life post-alteration. It will become the singular outward appearance you project all day. It will be how everyone you ever meet from now on will see you. Some will say "awesome" and "that is sweet" and others will turn their kids away or mutter negative comments under their breath. You will like the former and probably the latter too (I don't disagree with pissing off christians as much and as often as possible). But you also can't shut it off. I can wear a t-shirt with the words "Fuck religion" on it to get a response. And then take it off when I grow tired of the responses. You...well...you won't be able to. At least not easily.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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06-05-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: Becoming The Demon
(06-05-2013 02:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-05-2013 02:31 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  This bastard son of a bitch stole my damn idea! Angry Sorta.

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Charming. Drinking Beverage

You realize that doing that sort of thing will limit your life in many ways.

There are careers that will simply not be open to you as you will not be taken seriously.

There are places in the world you simply couldn't visit safely, or wouldn't let you in.

There are worthwhile people you will never get to know, or possibly even meet.

So, as freeing as you believe this to be, it will also cage you in.

I'm done.

And THERE it is. They've run out of more valid arguments, so they've resorted to the social problems and the work-related bullshit that I explicitely addressed in my OP.

Chas, if you don't have an actual reason for why this is such a horrible, terrible thing, why did you - given your intellectual stature - bother commenting at all?

I'm open to reason. I'm open to a change of mind. But all you've said is "You're crazy" and not bothered to back it up with anything. When I asked you to repeatedly, you failed. And now you're resorting to the very things I knew people like you would resort to. This is disheartening, Chas. I sincerely thought you were better than that.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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06-05-2013, 02:47 PM
RE: Becoming The Demon
Why would you want to become like a "demon" though? What drives you Mis to want to look that way (which is what I think Chas is driving at with regards to psychology)

Why horns? What is it in particular that you pick out those things over say... having claws surgically attached to your knuckles like wolverine out of Xmen?

If you had never ever seen a picture of somebody else having them done, do you think that you would of ever thought about it yourself Mis... which begs me to think that if you did see a picture of someone having it done and you thought "Wow, thats cool" then are you not trying to emulate them and that sense of awe you felt?

If you dont give a fuck about what people may think of you if you did have it done... then on the flipside why should you actually need it doing. If its not for the sake of "others" (as we have established you may not give a fuck what others think) then this must mean it is for you yourself. Which leads me back to the first question of what is it in particular that you identify with in looking that way? What drives you and what are their roots?

You claim its not psychological, when everything we do in life is psychological. Wether it be conforming or not, these things havent been put there by some outside divine force, these ideas have matured and grown over time by different stimuli.

Im not judging you for what you want doing... if you want it done to stand out and look "cool" to others then that is your choice... if it isnt so "superficial" then it must be something rooted deeper... and I think understanding these roots in an integral part of your decision of why and wether you should have it done ot not.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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06-05-2013, 02:47 PM
RE: Becoming The Demon
I think the main point is that is still something you can't shut off and it isn't something you can just stop being at your leisure.

A preacher comes round here every so often to rile up the students. I would love nothing more than to stand behind him with a sign detailing how big of an asshole he is, but some days I would just rather do something else instead of seeking confrontation.

You will get the attention you seek, but you will get it when you don't want it too. That bad day you're having 6 months from now when you just want people to leave you the hell alone? You'll get it. That day when everything is going right and you want to share your accomplishments with someone? Your appearance will still be there to take away some of the attention you seek.

I can take the decal off of my car of the T-rex eating a Jesus fish. I can wear a shirt that doesn't provoke anyone. I can cover up my tattoos and piercings. I can blend in as much or as little as I like, depending on my mood. There is no room for blending in the case of these modifications.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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06-05-2013, 02:49 PM
RE: Becoming The Demon
(06-05-2013 02:39 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(06-05-2013 02:35 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  If it's any consolation, I don't mind judgment - be it negative or positive. Judging is human nature. Every one of us does it in regard to something.

So it just comes down to how you are going to live your life post-alteration. It will become the singular outward appearance you project all day. It will be how everyone you ever meet from now on will see you. Some will say "awesome" and "that is sweet" and others will turn their kids away or mutter negative comments under their breath. You will like the former and probably the latter too (I don't disagree with pissing off christians as much and as often as possible). But you also can't shut it off. I can wear a t-shirt with the words "Fuck religion" on it to get a response. And then take it off when I grow tired of the responses. You...well...you won't be able to. At least not easily.

You drew a very good parallel, which was what I was going to do as well. I am constantly judged for simply being an atheist. There are none within my social groups who are not aware of it. Strangers have even brought it up, and I've had no shame in making it known.

But again, even if I wanted - for whatever reason - to hide my new "demon" look, all it'd take is a simple beanie. Covers the ears and the horns and nobody sees the tongue anyway. (I also have the excuse that I shave my head, so I risk becoming very cold if I don't wear the beanie)

In the end, I've just never been one to care what people thought of me. It's not a defiant "I don't care what you think!", it's just that I simply don't care. I never understood people who did. Just as I'm sure there are some people who don't understand that.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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06-05-2013, 02:54 PM
RE: Becoming The Demon
(06-05-2013 02:49 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(06-05-2013 02:39 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  So it just comes down to how you are going to live your life post-alteration. It will become the singular outward appearance you project all day. It will be how everyone you ever meet from now on will see you. Some will say "awesome" and "that is sweet" and others will turn their kids away or mutter negative comments under their breath. You will like the former and probably the latter too (I don't disagree with pissing off christians as much and as often as possible). But you also can't shut it off. I can wear a t-shirt with the words "Fuck religion" on it to get a response. And then take it off when I grow tired of the responses. You...well...you won't be able to. At least not easily.

You drew a very good parallel, which was what I was going to do as well. I am constantly judged for simply being an atheist. There are none within my social groups who are not aware of it. Strangers have even brought it up, and I've had no shame in making it known.

But again, even if I wanted - for whatever reason - to hide my new "demon" look, all it'd take is a simple beanie. Covers the ears and the horns and nobody sees the tongue anyway. (I also have the excuse that I shave my head, so I risk becoming very cold if I don't wear the beanie)

In the end, I've just never been one to care what people thought of me. It's not a defiant "I don't care what you think!", it's just that I simply don't care. I never understood people who did. Just as I'm sure there are some people who don't understand that.

If it is that simple to hide, then you can still blend in I suppose when you wish.

I don't care what the average Joe Schmo thinks of me either. But that doesn't mean I would rather him not like me or think of me as something to be feared or not liked either. It is going to be hard to maintain people's neutral opinion of you too.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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06-05-2013, 03:00 PM
RE: Becoming The Demon
(06-05-2013 02:47 PM)bemore Wrote:  Why would you want to become like a "demon" though? What drives you Mis to want to look that way (which is what I think Chas is driving at with regards to psychology)

Why horns? What is it in particular that you pick out those things over say... having claws surgically attached to your knuckles like wolverine out of Xmen?

If you had never ever seen a picture of somebody else having them done, do you think that you would of ever thought about it yourself Mis... which begs me to think that if you did see a picture of someone having it done and you thought "Wow, thats cool" then are you not trying to emulate them and that sense of awe you felt?

If you dont give a fuck about what people may think of you if you did have it done... then on the flipside why should you actually need it doing. If its not for the sake of "others" (as we have established you may not give a fuck what others think) then this must mean it is for you yourself. Which leads me back to the first question of what is it in particular that you identify with in looking that way? What drives you and what are their roots?

You claim its not psychological, when everything we do in life is psychological. Wether it be conforming or not, these things havent been put there by some outside divine force, these ideas have matured and grown over time by different stimuli.

Im not judging you for what you want doing... if you want it done to stand out and look "cool" to others then that is your choice... if it isnt so "superficial" then it must be something rooted deeper... and I think understanding these roots in an integral part of your decision of why and wether you should have it done ot not.

I never said it wasn't psychological. I actually equated it with psychology when I spoke about bodybuilding and "makeovers". It is of course psychological. My only claim has been that it's not necessarily unhealthy psychology which is driving it.

Anyway, I recall standing in the shower and looking in my little fogless mirror while brushing my teeth. I wasn't really looking for anything specific, but I happened to glance at my forehead and imagined a pair of nifty demon horns sticking out of it. I was somewhat taken by the idea, but it hadn't really taken root, so I regarded it as just a passing fancy and went about my day. Some time later, I saw a movie in which a character had horns in the same place I had previously imagined. Somehow, I couldn't stop staring at him. He was a devil, mind you, so he had the ears and the horns and the whole getup. I was drawn to it not because I thought it looked cool unto itself, but because it spoke to something which was already within me. I can't say there is no measure of emulation whatsoever, but that was never the inspiration. It was merely the encouragement. (Much like my piercings)

As for the "why a demon", well, I just have a macabre style. Perhaps this is TMI, but I've occasionally imagined that I am some sort of dark or demonic figure while climaxing with a woman. I like dark art and dark music. I like dark films. It just suited my style so perfectly that I actually said to someone "I can't believe I haven't thought of this before". And there are, of course, many much "lighter" reasons I could use - I'm anti-christian and demons are too; I like scaring people; it looks badass; etc. etc. - but the root motivations are much deeper and more meaingful. One of them is because it's what I'm feeling at this point in my life. (As per the OP) Another is that I'm drawn to the aesthetic. And not necessarily the aesthetic of a hero, like Wolverine. It's a complex issue, obviously.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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06-05-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Becoming The Demon
(06-05-2013 02:27 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(06-05-2013 07:30 AM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  Since it's your new version you're wanting to get noticed, what in your old version did you not want people to see?

I understand the question, but it implies that I'm trying to cover something up. That's not necessarily the case. It's simply that I've "outgrown" who I once was, and would like to move on to the next stage. It's happened a few times already; as it does all of us throughout our lives.

The reason I'm ok with the idea of making this transformation as my "next stage" is that, again, nothing I've proposed is permanent. Ears can be uncropped, just as they can be cropped in the first place. The reversal of a tongue-splitting is just as simple and equally successful (in terms of outcome) as the act of splitting it in the first place.

And really, those are the only really big endeavors that would be undertaken with this process. Dermal anchors are $65 at the tattoo place. I could go get them done today in the 35 minutes I have left before the place closes. Taking those out, if I so desired, would require a medical professional, but even if I didn't take them out - but wanted them hidden - they make jewelry which renders the implant virtually invisible.

Ultimately, would the undoing of the whole process cost money? Yes. Would it be incredibly time consuming? Yes. Does it all seem unecessary when I could just not do any of it in the first place? Yes. But, can it be done? Yes.

Sorry to digress like that, but when I talked about "moving on to the next stage", I could hear the critics asking "what about when you want to move on from THAT stage?" and I wanted to counter them before the argument was made. I truly have brought these things into consideration. Everything everyone has mentioned here thus far.

You cannot actually undo the split tongue or the cropped ears. There will be nerve and vessel damage as well as scar tissue. There is no real going back.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-05-2013, 03:49 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2013 04:51 PM by Chas.)
RE: Becoming The Demon
(06-05-2013 02:42 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(06-05-2013 02:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  Charming. Drinking Beverage

You realize that doing that sort of thing will limit your life in many ways.

There are careers that will simply not be open to you as you will not be taken seriously.

There are places in the world you simply couldn't visit safely, or wouldn't let you in.

There are worthwhile people you will never get to know, or possibly even meet.

So, as freeing as you believe this to be, it will also cage you in.

I'm done.

And THERE it is. They've run out of more valid arguments, so they've resorted to the social problems and the work-related bullshit that I explicitely addressed in my OP.

Chas, if you don't have an actual reason for why this is such a horrible, terrible thing, why did you - given your intellectual stature - bother commenting at all?

I'm open to reason. I'm open to a change of mind. But all you've said is "You're crazy" and not bothered to back it up with anything. When I asked you to repeatedly, you failed. And now you're resorting to the very things I knew people like you would resort to. This is disheartening, Chas. I sincerely thought you were better than that.

No, you are not open to reason. You are obsessed with this idea.

"People like you"? Really? This is just another example of your unreason in this.

I am a pragmatist. I question your motives and I pointed out practical issues.

All you present is dismissal and denial.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-05-2013, 04:03 PM
RE: Becoming The Demon
Chas Wrote:You cannot actually undo the split tongue or the cropped ears. There will be nerve and vessel damage as well as scar tissue. There is no real going back.
As for the tongue, I don't know anyone who tried to reverse it, but those people I know have not had any negative consequences of having it, and usually, people are not looking inside your mouth.

Stretched lobes can be surgically corrected because the stretching causes extra tissue to grow, so it's a matter of cutting it up and sewing it back together in a way that looks like it used to. Cartilage can be a tricky thing, though, and when they point the ears, they usually remove tissue to point it, so there is less ear to work with. The effect could be lessened, but it's true that you wouldn't have ears that looked like the ones you were born with. But again, what matters more is how Mis feels about that.

(06-05-2013 03:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, you are not open to reason. You are obsessed with this idea.
I haven't seen any evidence of him not being open to reason. He might be obsessed with the idea though.
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