Before Mark's Gospel
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18-04-2017, 02:28 PM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
(18-04-2017 12:22 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  I remember reading about this in the past, and the apologetics for it. I can't remember the details though so I will probably revisit the topic again.
The apologetics grasps at various straws. Such as:

1) Josephus -- a brief passage from Jewish Wars which is widely regarded by scholars as a pious fraud -- a later scribal insertion. Early church fathers did not mention it as being in that book, despite having every motivation to seize upon it. The style is a jarring departure from the surrounding text and sounds like "a commercial from our sponsors". When I read it as a Christian it screamed "forgery" to me. Imagine what it seems like to me NOW.

2) Tertulliun and basically all others they cite mention "followers of Christus" and the like but this is proof of nothing other than the existence of the early Christ-cult. No one questions that Christianity goes WAY back and has made similar claims since the beginning about the divinity of Christ and the like. What is questioned is the validity of those claims, not that they are being made.

Perhaps more damning than what gets mentioned about early Christianity by secular authors, is what doesn't get mentioned. As I said, there is no account of or reference to events or alleged events remotely like those related in the gospels. Even accounts of known celestial events such as comets or supernovas in that era do not line up with the time of Christ's birth (so-called star of Bethlehem) unless you look at them cross-eyed and stretch and bend beyond reason to hopefully force-fit them. The list goes on.
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18-04-2017, 02:29 PM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
Remember that every time Paul mentioned Jesus the man, it's in a known forgery. Paul was not originally referring to a human, but more likely to a celestial being. So it's not the same thing as Mark (almost) wrote about.

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18-04-2017, 02:47 PM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
This video discusses the above point.




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19-04-2017, 01:44 AM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
It's amazing to me how unconcerned some Christians are that the bible is peppered with forgeries. I'd wager a lot of them don't even know.

God sits by and watches people make shit up that he didn't "inspire" them to say? Or did he just forget first time, and so "inspires" someone else to go mess with the text?

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19-04-2017, 02:11 AM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
I think whats possibly worse, is that if you walked into a church and attempted to tell people about this, WITH the evidence to prove it, you'd probably get lynched or something.

"I don't do magic, Morty, I do science. One takes brains, the other takes dark eye liner" - Rick
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19-04-2017, 02:14 AM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
Most likely.

Note that Christian Bible scholars also generally agree about these forgeries, which is another thing I doubt many Christians know.

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19-04-2017, 06:37 AM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
(19-04-2017 02:14 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Most likely.

Note that Christian Bible scholars also generally agree about these forgeries, which is another thing I doubt many Christians know.
My former theological overlords acknowledged the forgeries but then deployed circular reasoning: since the forgeries are obvious and well known and defined, it simply serves to enhance the veracity of what's left, which we then have even greater confidence in.

I never met a Christian without an endless stock of rationalizations to draw on.
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19-04-2017, 06:43 AM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
Right... ugh.

Since I can't see the monster under my bed, it must be invisible.

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19-04-2017, 07:05 AM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
Finally! Stop the presses! We've found god at last!

He's been the monster under the bed all this time.

Makes sense, as all he basically does, is scare the bejesus (geddid?) of little kids of all ages, who need a father figure and protector in their lives, someone to watch over them, kiss their boo-boos to make it all better and tell them everything is going to be juuuust fine Dodgy

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19-04-2017, 10:59 AM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
(19-04-2017 02:11 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  I think whats possibly worse, is that if you walked into a church and attempted to tell people about this, WITH the evidence to prove it, you'd probably get lynched or something.

The churches I went to were a tad proactive about it: they slandered any study or source that would say anything other than the bible holds up to historical scrutiny. I remember whole sermons that went after things like this, which always ended up being something like this as a rebuttal:

1. God is all powerful.
2. God cannot sin, therefore can't lie.
3. The Bible says all this happened (and digging further using the Bible to prove the Bible).
4. Therefore it's true, so there!

Some even went so far as to suggest a christian is sinning by even entertaining or reading stuff that would even dare suggest the bible wasn't 100% legit. I distinctly remember one sermon where the preacher informed us that if we started talking to anyone that suggested this stuff or starting reading any material like this to "run away as fast as possible".
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