Before Mark's Gospel
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19-04-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
(19-04-2017 10:59 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  I distinctly remember one sermon where the preacher informed us that if we started talking to anyone that suggested this stuff or starting reading any material like this to "run away as fast as possible".
Yeah I heard stuff like that too.

On the one hand, it's an "imperishable faith" and on the other hand the way you're supposed to respond to the slightest challenge is to cut and run.
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19-04-2017, 01:59 PM (This post was last modified: 19-04-2017 02:55 PM by ResidentEvilFan.)
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
(18-04-2017 02:28 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(18-04-2017 12:22 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  I remember reading about this in the past, and the apologetics for it. I can't remember the details though so I will probably revisit the topic again.
The apologetics grasps at various straws. Such as:

1) Josephus -- a brief passage from Jewish Wars which is widely regarded by scholars as a pious fraud -- a later scribal insertion. Early church fathers did not mention it as being in that book, despite having every motivation to seize upon it. The style is a jarring departure from the surrounding text and sounds like "a commercial from our sponsors". When I read it as a Christian it screamed "forgery" to me. Imagine what it seems like to me NOW.

2) Tertulliun and basically all others they cite mention "followers of Christus" and the like but this is proof of nothing other than the existence of the early Christ-cult. No one questions that Christianity goes WAY back and has made similar claims since the beginning about the divinity of Christ and the like. What is questioned is the validity of those claims, not that they are being made.

Perhaps more damning than what gets mentioned about early Christianity by secular authors, is what doesn't get mentioned. As I said, there is no account of or reference to events or alleged events remotely like those related in the gospels. Even accounts of known celestial events such as comets or supernovas in that era do not line up with the time of Christ's birth (so-called star of Bethlehem) unless you look at them cross-eyed and stretch and bend beyond reason to hopefully force-fit them. The list goes on.

This is something that makes me chuckle.

In church (and reading crap like Josh McDowell), it's presented that extra-biblical/secular accounts of Jesus are plentiful. But the truth is there's hardly anything at all. None are eyewitness accounts of Jesus, and the best is Josephus, who barely mentions anything after you take out the forged part. And all them are basically just saying "There are people who worship this dude named Christ". That's it. Nothing about anything he did, any supernatural events, nada.

It's just dumb on so many levels; of course the same thing goes for pretty much every other major event in the bible. I mean you'd think Egyptian history would be full of accounts of all those plagues and all those Jews that caused them problems, but we got nothing.
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20-04-2017, 02:17 PM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
(18-04-2017 01:17 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(18-04-2017 08:30 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I was watching this video by Evid3nc3 (no need to watch it):

At around 10m 22s he mentions that 1 Thessalonians, Galatians and 1 Corinthians were all written before Mark's gospel and that they were written by Paul.

Paul mentions the crucifixion and resurrection, around 22 years after the event. But apparently, as the other books are added (Mark, Matthew, Luke etc), they become more miraculous in content.

Not sure what point Evid3nc3 was trying to make here because, of all the miracles performed, surely the greatest would be the rising from the dead, which Paul speaks of in the earlier letters mentioned above.

I thought the earliest accounts we had of Jesus was Mark's gosepl which was about 40 (?) years after Jesus' death but with Paul's above letters, we're looking at just over 20 years. That said, Paul never actually met Jesus in the flesh.

Just spitballing here, but anyone familiar with any of this, opinions?

Papias, a second generation Christian, wrote that Mark was somebody who listened to Peter preach in Rome and wrote down what he heard, but not in an orderly manner. Some scholars have speculated that Papis' Mark was the root of the gospel of Mark. Maybe, maybe not.

https://ehrmanblog.org/papias-on-matthew-and-mark/

There have been quite a number of speculations about all of this. But if Papias' Mark had nothing to do with Mark, and his Matthew has nothing to do with the Gospel of Matthew, then both men's works were lost early on. Mighty careless of them.

Also, Peter never was in Rome......

Playing chess with pigeons......
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20-04-2017, 02:32 PM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
(20-04-2017 02:17 PM)JakSiemasz Wrote:  
(18-04-2017 01:17 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Papias, a second generation Christian, wrote that Mark was somebody who listened to Peter preach in Rome and wrote down what he heard, but not in an orderly manner. Some scholars have speculated that Papis' Mark was the root of the gospel of Mark. Maybe, maybe not.

https://ehrmanblog.org/papias-on-matthew-and-mark/

There have been quite a number of speculations about all of this. But if Papias' Mark had nothing to do with Mark, and his Matthew has nothing to do with the Gospel of Matthew, then both men's works were lost early on. Mighty careless of them.

Also, Peter never was in Rome......

That one of the MOST screwy things. The idea that ignorant Galilean peasant fishermen, suddenly became world travelers preaching around the Mediterranean ... Weeping
Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-04-2017, 02:55 PM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
(20-04-2017 02:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-04-2017 02:17 PM)JakSiemasz Wrote:  Also, Peter never was in Rome......

That one of the MOST screwy things. The idea that ignorant Galilean peasant fishermen, suddenly became world travelers preaching around the Mediterranean ... Weeping
Facepalm

Don't forget the part where they learned to read and write, proficiently, in Greek...

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21-04-2017, 10:57 AM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
(20-04-2017 02:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-04-2017 02:17 PM)JakSiemasz Wrote:  Also, Peter never was in Rome......

That one of the MOST screwy things. The idea that ignorant Galilean peasant fishermen, suddenly became world travelers preaching around the Mediterranean ... Weeping
Facepalm

But but but.....that shows the power of JEBUS! He turned mouth breathers into awesome god experts!
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21-04-2017, 03:45 PM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
(18-04-2017 08:30 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Just spitballing here, but anyone familiar with any of this, opinions?

It's these sorts of inconsistencies that further confirm the Christian bible can't be trusted. It's nothing more than a farrago of misinterpretation, myths, self-contradictions and fiction.

At the end of the day, it simply doesn't matter in an enlightened 21st century who wrote what, or when or why. In fact, we could probably increase the collective global IQ if we just burned all bibles tomorrow.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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21-04-2017, 04:33 PM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
(20-04-2017 02:55 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(20-04-2017 02:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  That one of the MOST screwy things. The idea that ignorant Galilean peasant fishermen, suddenly became world travelers preaching around the Mediterranean ... Weeping
Facepalm

Don't forget the part where they learned to read and write, proficiently, in Greek...

The usual reply too this is, they hired scribes to take dictation and didn't need to be literate. Which is plausible, many did this in that time. Nor is it impossible illiterate Palestinians may have gotten to Rome. In that era large numbers of people were going to Rome.

The problem is that the descriptions of the writings of Mark and Matthew as per Papias do not fit the supposed gospels of Mark and Matthew, which received those titles sometime after they began to be circulated.

Some people claim that these early works of Matthew and Mark were rewritten later by redactors, but that is surmise with no evidence to support that. And in any case, the original manuscripts have not survived. So we have no way of telling what was original in any such gospels, and what was made up later by the hypothetica redactors.

Papias' work have not survived, which I think argues that they did not contain any truly amazing and wonderful things about the life of Jesus that would have spread them far and wide among the Christians about the time the gospels were being written and propagated.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
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21-04-2017, 06:05 PM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
(21-04-2017 04:33 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Some people claim that these early works of Matthew and Mark were rewritten later by redactors, but that is surmise with no evidence to support that. And in any case, the original manuscripts have not survived. So we have no way of telling what was original in any such gospels, and what was made up later by the hypothetica redactors.

I'm sure that without the later editors, the Bible we read today would make even less sense.
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22-04-2017, 12:09 AM
RE: Before Mark's Gospel
How old the so-called pauline letters are is irrelevant. We do not have the originals. Xtian writers tell us that in the 140's AD a man named Marcion concocted a canon of scripture which contained a single gospel - which was later augmented and called the gospel of Luke and 10 letters of this alleged paul character.

Marcion believed that the God of the Old Testament was an evil creator god that Jesus came to destroy.

Marcion believed that this evil god did in fact reveal his will through the Old Testament. Thus he believed in the "inspiration" of the Old Testament from divine sources, although from an evil source.

There is thus no fucking way that the proto-orthodox xtians ( to borrow Ehrman's term for them ) would or could use any of this alleged paul shit without a total re-write to make it compatible with the bullshit story they were putting out in the late 2d and 3d centuries.

Let's remember that the earliest xtian writer for whom we have any significant body of writing, Justin Martyr, writing in the 160's AD - his First Apologia is written to Emperor Antonius Pius who ruled around that time - never mentions any "paul." Justin, however, does know about Marcion which suggests that the re-write was not finished by the time Justin was writing.

Now the tale later jesus freaks put out was that it was Paul who brought the story to the Gentiles so, since Justin was in Rome which was ground zero for the Roman Empire, is it possible that he never heard of the man who brought the new faith to them? It's possible, I suppose but somewhat unlikely. He was writing just over 100 years after this paul shit supposedly happened. It would be rather like some historian in 1876 writing a history of the American Revolution a century later and not mentioning George Washington. It would be hard to make a coherent argument for such idiocy.

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