Before the Big Bang
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17-04-2017, 10:51 PM
RE: Before the Big Bang
(17-04-2017 07:08 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Lawrence Krauss recently explained on his newest book tour "The greatest story ever told, so far." He explained on sub-atomic levels things pop in and out of existence all the time. He gave an example. Think of a light bulb. It produces light. Light is made of photons, the bulb didn't put thought behind creation these photons, it did grab them from the air. Prior to the bulb being turned on those photons didn't exist. They were created with no tools or thought behind it.
I'm pretty sure I watched a youtube video of this in the past few years

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17-04-2017, 11:50 PM
RE: Before the Big Bang
(17-04-2017 09:33 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  He says God is a transcendent, immaterial, timeless (he clarified this has meaning eternal), spaceless, eternal, uncaused all powerful entity that created the universe.

And He had a kid...

As impressive as that list of attributes sounds there isn't a shred of evidence for it. Largely because it's defined as being non-evident. Makes for great theology. One of the keys to making a successful deity is to make it completely undetectable so that nobody will be surprised when it fails to do anything whatsoever.

Quote:The thinking is that this entity can exist outside the universe, the universe had a beginning, therefore something had to exist apart from it, therefore, this entity he calls God, 'caused the universe' to come into being.

It's called the Argument from First Cause and was stolen by Thomas Aquinas from Aristotle who dreamt up the Unmoved Mover 350 years before the Romans tacked up Christ. It sounds profound but only because those ancient philosophers had a woefully under-devellopped cosmology.

The Big Bang is not simply an explosion of matter and energy. It is the beginning of space-time. There is no 'before the Big Bang' nor 'outside of the Universe'. The question "What caused the Universe?" asks "What happened before time began?" Nothing happened because there was no space for it to happen in nor time for it to happen during.

It is the same as asking what caused causality.

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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18-04-2017, 12:29 AM
RE: Before the Big Bang
(17-04-2017 11:06 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-04-2017 09:59 AM)whateverist Wrote:  Based on our inability to peek beyond the big bang, it follows that ........ N O T H I N G. Nothing follows. Both a beginning-of-everything, uni-verse theory and yuuuuuge, frothy pile of soap bubble like multi-verses account for our inability look back further. So we don't know.

Some people seem impressed that at least we know our one universe exists, especially those eager to argue that it couldn't exist at all unless it had come from nothing-but-god. But the tangibility of our one universe is accounted for equally well if the big bang which begat this universe is a one time deal or is part of a wider system of such events.





Shouldn't have started watching this at 11 at night. Very interesting so far, 23 min in. To be continued.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

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18-04-2017, 12:34 AM
RE: Before the Big Bang
How can existence exist outside existence?
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18-04-2017, 12:40 AM
RE: Before the Big Bang
Maybe it's just a sorting error in the way we define existence.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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18-04-2017, 04:14 AM
RE: Before the Big Bang
It's like science is drawing a map and religion comes over and goes

What's outside the map?

and science goes

Go away I'm busy here.

But if the opposite were to occur, religion would go

I'M BEING PERSECUTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One uses a map to go somewhere. If one doesn't want to go anywhere, then religion. Tongue

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18-04-2017, 12:23 PM
RE: Before the Big Bang
(18-04-2017 12:40 AM)whateverist Wrote:  Maybe it's just a sorting error in the way we define existence.

Clearly it's turtles all the way down.
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18-04-2017, 12:28 PM
RE: Before the Big Bang
(18-04-2017 12:23 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(18-04-2017 12:40 AM)whateverist Wrote:  Maybe it's just a sorting error in the way we define existence.

Clearly it's turtles all the way down.
That is so anti-terrapin. Gasp Facepalm
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18-04-2017, 07:15 PM
RE: Before the Big Bang
(17-04-2017 09:33 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I was listening to Sunday's (16th Apr) Atheist Experience with Jan Peeples and Matt Dillahunty. Long story short, one caller called Alex (from CO) said that scientists believe there was something that caused the big bang. He also said it was God, because God was timeless, eternal, and two other things I can't remember.

The above is too simplistic a presentation of what was discussed but it's gotten me thinking.

What might have caused the bang to, go bang? Do scientists have a theory? I'm fully aware the Alex is just inserting God simply because scientists don't know, but I was wondering if they have some reason to believe what might have happened?

I'm not trying to preach or troll here. I would just like to have some sort of discussion because I'm admitting to being clueless on this topic.

Thanks

"Scientists don't know - therefore aliens!"

EDIT: Here's the relevant part (at 1 hour 16m 12 secs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h4uxzBqf7U

He says God is a transcendent, immaterial, timeless (he clarified this has meaning eternal), spaceless, eternal, uncaused all powerful entity that created the universe.

The thinking is that this entity can exist outside the universe, the universe had a beginning, therefore something had to exist apart from it, therefore, this entity he calls God, 'caused the universe' to come into being.

Look up loop quantum gravity. It is a theory which attempts to combine quantum mechanics and relativity. From what I understand the so called singularity is one of the major problems with the Big Bang since it is based on relativity but relativity does not apply at very small scales. Loop quantum gravity applies quantum correction terms to the equations of relativity and what results is a universe which was contracting prior to the Big Bang. Matter and energy and space time can only be compressed so far and then it bounces. The universe never forms a singularity so the laws of physics don't break down. It solves several problems with the Big Bang such as the problem of entropy. Entropy resets at the bounce. That's my admittedly limited understanding of the theory. Anyone is welcomed to correct me.

Philosophically though what we can say is that what caused the Big Bang or bounce or expansion is the nature of what bounced or banged or expanded since there are no floating actions. Actions are caused by entities and the nature of the action is determined by the nature of what acts. That's enough to satisfy me, not that I don't hope that sometime in my life scientists don't discover the more precise answer. From what I understand this theory will be hard to confirm. scientists need to find what are called b-mode gravitational waves as a step in the process of confirming the theory.

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21-04-2017, 03:24 AM
RE: Before the Big Bang
I didn't want to start another thread so I'll post this here. I was reading something online and a theist said the following:

"Francis Crick proved himself - the DNA molecule cannot evolve"

I think the theist was trying to discredit evolution. In saying DNA can't evolve he is saying we did not evolve.

I am a complete idiot when it comes to this sort of thing, but I thought DNA doesn't evolve because it is just the actual building blocks of life. In other words, DNA drives the evolution and doesn't itself evolve?

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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