Belief in a Lack of Belief
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27-12-2017, 08:36 AM
RE: Belief in a Lack of Belief
(27-12-2017 07:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A questions for atheists:

Do you lack a belief that God/s likely do not exist?

Do you lack a belief that the universe is unlikely to have been created?


I ask that you respond with a yes or no, to the above questions, which you can then explain or justify if you choose to.


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These are pretty convoluted questions, but I'll answer them as best I can.

Yes. I don't know what Gods are meant to be, so I have no beliefs about how likely they are to exist. You're welcome to tell me what you define them as.

Yes. I have no idea how likely it is that the universe was created.

Here's a question for you. I've thought of a number between 1 and 10. Do you believe it is even? Yes or no. If no, does that mean you believe it isn't even?

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27-12-2017, 08:36 AM
RE: Belief in a Lack of Belief
(27-12-2017 08:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The reason for the question, is that the primary distinction atheists often make is between knowing and not knowing (gnostic and Agnostic).

The reason for your question is (probably) that you just want to argue about something.

A person with an honest question could phrase it like this:

Do you believe in god/s? (yes/no)
What is your certainty? (0-100)


But you aren't here to be honest, are you?

(27-12-2017 08:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The distinction that’s lacking is one between believing and believing.

Indeed. Drinking Beverage

(27-12-2017 08:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Between Agnostic atheists that believe god does not exist, and Agnostic atheists who merely lack a belief that God exists.

Seriously?

(27-12-2017 08:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The only way anyone would be able to distinguish between the two is by asking the appropriate questions.

And the phrasing of your questions is inappropriate, although it is a good example of your intentions.

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27-12-2017, 08:36 AM
Belief in a Lack of Belief
(27-12-2017 08:29 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(27-12-2017 07:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
If you believe God doesn’t exist, you’re an atheists.
...

I could never and would never be an atheists.

I find the very notion syntactically offensive.

Angry


*fixed. I think.


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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-12-2017, 08:37 AM (This post was last modified: 27-12-2017 08:42 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: Belief in a Lack of Belief
We don't believe God/s exists.
And yes it's not the same as believing God/s don't exist.
Because the default state is disbelief in the absence of evidence.
Especially in the light of outrageous claims.
Your examples are not relevant because clearly children do exist.
The claim that a person has or doesn't have children is not a ridiculous one.
The default belief about leprechauns is that they aren't real.
And without concrete evidence that they are real a claim that there is one behind the couch is met with strong disbelief.
The claim that there is a sock behind the couch is met with a shrug.

I get pissed at childish nit picking games the theists insist on playing when they come in here.
You know the answers to your questions and you just want to piss in our pool.
Why don't you go somewhere that people actually find any of your nonsense interesting?
Well I'll leave other's to find or not find things interesting but for how long do you need to engage in this sort of not picking crap?
Clearly it is of no value.
I'm out.

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27-12-2017, 08:41 AM
RE: Belief in a Lack of Belief
(27-12-2017 08:27 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(27-12-2017 08:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The only way anyone would be able to distinguish between the two is by asking the appropriate questions.

Do you believe no god exists or do you merely lack a belief in god(s)?
There that was easy. Drinking Beverage

Some atheists like me believed in God for a long time before we stopped.

Other atheists never believed in God to begin with.

The first group might accurately be described as believing no God exists, or disbelieving in God. What was belief became disbelief.

The second group might most accurately be described as merely lacking any belief in God.
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27-12-2017, 08:43 AM
RE: Belief in a Lack of Belief
At work.

Consider

It is odd my previous post trying to clarify word usage seems to have been lost.

Sad
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27-12-2017, 08:43 AM
RE: Belief in a Lack of Belief
(27-12-2017 08:34 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Then I’d have to define what it means to merely lack a belief, and what it means to believe. Asking it as a question of likelihood was a means to limit having to do that. The definition is incorporated into the question. I understand it’s a cumbersomely composed one, but the whole idea of lack of belief seems cumbersomely composed, that i had I ask the question in such a way.

If you give too much wiggle room, people will wiggle the shit out of it to no end. Give to little and people tell you to fuck off, finding the right balance is difficult.

I'm not seeing how writing gibberish relieves you from the responsibility of defining the terms in your question. Drinking Beverage

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27-12-2017, 08:43 AM
RE: Belief in a Lack of Belief
(27-12-2017 08:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-12-2017 08:18 AM)Dom Wrote:  Assuming something is light years different from believing it.

I don’t think so. Assuming might be lights years away from knowing but not believing.

If you weakly believe something is true, it would fairly synonymous with stating you assume it’s true.

Let’s give it some degree of certainty.

When I say I lack an assumption one way or the other in regards to your martial status, that would be akin to being 50/50.

Assuming you’re married (or single) puts me about the 50% mark.

If knowing is 100%. What percentage of confidence would you associate with a weak belief? How about an assumption?

Not so. Lets assume you and I are in London and having a beer together....

We can now go into imagining what would happen. Neither you nor me believe for a minute that we are actually in London having a beer together.

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27-12-2017, 08:44 AM
Belief in a Lack of Belief
(27-12-2017 08:36 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(27-12-2017 07:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A questions for atheists:

Do you lack a belief that God/s likely do not exist?

Do you lack a belief that the universe is unlikely to have been created?


I ask that you respond with a yes or no, to the above questions, which you can then explain or justify if you choose to.


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These are pretty convoluted questions, but I'll answer them as best I can.

Yes. I don't know what Gods are meant to be, so I have no beliefs about how likely they are to exist. You're welcome to tell me what you define them as.

Yes. I have no idea how likely it is that the universe was created.

Here's a question for you. I've thought of a number between 1 and 10. Do you believe it is even? Yes or no. If no, does that mean you believe it isn't even?


No I don’t believe it’s even. And no that doesn’t mean that I believe it isn’t even.

I’m 50/50 on the question. I lack a belief one way or the other, because I have no basis or reason to assume one or the other.

If you’re 50/50 on the god question, like I am about the number being even or odd, then I’d expect the answer to be yes



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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-12-2017, 08:44 AM
RE: Belief in a Lack of Belief
Let me make it simple. There are two questions, which result in three positions.

1) Do you believe gods exist? Y/N

2) Do you believe gods don't exist? Y/N

Y,N is a theist

N,N is an atheist who has no belief for or against gods

N,Y is an atheist who also holds a positive, stronger belief that there are no gods

If you want to personally redefine atheism so that it doesn't include the second position here, that's up to you. You'd have to come up with a different name for it. But it wouldn't stop some people taking that position, whatever you call it.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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