Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
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09-03-2015, 01:31 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 12:22 AM)Typhon Wrote:  Maybe not like ghosts people think of from movies. How about the negative energy produced from a tragic or horrific event. The environment soaks up this negative energy and slowly releases it. What people see/hear/feel is this energy interacting with them or the surrounding area.
What happens with positive energy? does it bounce off things rather than get soaked up?

How does the environment distinguish negative from positive energy? How does it know to soak one up but bounce the other?
How can we objectively test and measure this idea?
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09-03-2015, 01:39 AM
Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 01:31 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 12:22 AM)Typhon Wrote:  Maybe not like ghosts people think of from movies. How about the negative energy produced from a tragic or horrific event. The environment soaks up this negative energy and slowly releases it. What people see/hear/feel is this energy interacting with them or the surrounding area.
What happens with positive energy? does it bounce off things rather than get soaked up?

How does the environment distinguish negative from positive energy? How does it know to soak one up but bounce the other?
How can we objectively test and measure this idea?

I don't know. Maybe the positive energy helps the environment, produce greener grass or wherever it is expelled. Testing, I have no idea, possibly a machine that measures the energy given off by live animals.
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09-03-2015, 01:40 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 12:22 AM)Typhon Wrote:  Maybe not like ghosts people think of from movies. How about the negative energy produced from a tragic or horrific event.

What energy? How do you measure it? What generates it? How is it transmitted, stored, or discharged? How does it interact with other matter? What are it's properties?


(09-03-2015 12:22 AM)Typhon Wrote:  The environment soaks up this negative energy and slowly releases it. What people see/hear/feel is this energy interacting with them or the surrounding area.

That's all just unsubstantiated woo-woo speculation. Might make an interesting piece of fiction, but unfortunately far too many believe things like this are literally true.

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09-03-2015, 05:10 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
The thing with woo is that it cannot be disproved.

The human imagination is a very important attribute, we need it to invent stuff. We need it to create movies and write books and create all forms of art and yes, for science.

Like all of our other attributes, imagination can also be a hindrance. Most of us have experienced something inexplicable at some point - probably some error in visual or audio perception. Most all these things can be explained if looked into, like when I could feel my husband being close by and present for quite some time after he died. Same thing as the phantom limb after amputation - the brain is so used to include something in daily processing that it continues to do so after the item is gone.

That said, our reality is limited to what we can perceive with the senses we have or prove through science. What we perceive and what, for instance, our dogs perceive, is totally different. Dogs can "smell the past", they can smell an object and know much of it's history, including who handled it previously, what other objects used to be near it and all kinds of things that we cannot perceive. Stands to reason that different species on this globe include different things in their perception. This is a mostly unexplored phenomenon, and one I think would solve many of our questions.

Now, when you watch a person or animal die, there is an energy that is here one moment and gone the next. This is what gave rise to the perception of a soul. Now, identity and memory lie in the brain, and certainly the brain is not escaping at the time of death. So this "energy" is not a rebirth of the same identity, it is something that recycles just like everything on this planet does eventually. When things recycle, they do not stay as one unit but are broken down in to small fragments and mingle with other fragments to form something new that gets utilized by something else...

So I cannot poopoo the idea that something intangible, something we do not know how to measure or identify, escapes at the time of death. At this junction I have to say that I don't know. What does stand to reason is that this "energy" (for lack of a better word) has no identity and will be fragmented in a process of being recycled.

Basically, learning the truth about this would be very interesting, but it would not change that death is death and nothing survives. Everything gets recycled to benefit another organism, eventually. In that fashion it lives on, fragmented and without identity. Whether this process includes some sort of "energy" or not is a matter of curiosity, but knowing the answer will likely not affect our perception of death in any way - we die and get recycled.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-03-2015, 05:28 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 12:46 AM)Typhon Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 12:41 AM)pablo Wrote:  I'll probably be sorry I asked this.
How does this energy continue after death?

It's just transferred to the next organism through the carbon cycle. Energy can not be destroyed, it just changes

Oh Jesus H CHrist -- what a load of horseshit....

Does this mean that there's a "Duracell Heaven" where all dead batteries go when they "die"????


Invoking scientific principals does not justify nonsensical drivel.

When you die - any energy stored in your body is expended - dissipated - and no longer associated with your being. That's the whole fucking point of being dead.

You think you're coming back as a "V 2.0" of yourself?

That's some serious egotistical issues you've gotta deal with.

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09-03-2015, 05:37 AM
Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 05:28 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 12:46 AM)Typhon Wrote:  It's just transferred to the next organism through the carbon cycle. Energy can not be destroyed, it just changes

Oh Jesus H CHrist -- what a load of horseshit....

Does this mean that there's a "Duracell Heaven" where all dead batteries go when they "die"????


Invoking scientific principals does not justify nonsensical drivel.

When you die - any energy stored in your body is expended - dissipated - and no longer associated with your being. That's the whole fucking point of being dead.

You think you're coming back as a "V 2.0" of yourself?

That's some serious egotistical issues you've gotta deal with.

Uh, where did I state about coming back from the dead. I don't remember typing anything about a heaven either. I do enjoy being me, should I not?
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09-03-2015, 05:59 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
you didn't..

But implying that there's "something after life" is nonsense - any way you cut it.


It's the whole point of "dead"..

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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09-03-2015, 06:07 AM
Lightbulb RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(08-03-2015 10:44 AM)Mage The Entertainer Wrote:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1KPQm8L2DA

I honestly don't understand why anybody, especially atheist, agnostics, or any rational logical science minded person would believe in ghosts. I can understand "seeing things" and having experiences you lack an explanation for but seriously, ghosts? Facepalm

That is because the word "atheist" only refers to god claims. I run into atheists all the time with their own superstitions and bullshit claims. Homopathy, horoscopes, JFK AND 9/11 crap, don't even see the need for an atheist to be a Buddhist. I have run into atheists who stupidly claim Roddenberry invented the modern cell phone. Others who stupidly think the warp drive and transporter are possibilities.

Not impossible. "Atheist" does not refer to level of education, or an indicator of good logic skills. "Atheist" merely means "off" on one claim. It is not a moral code, political party, loyalty oath, nor does it indicate level of education.

Skeptical about some things does not mean skeptical about everything.

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09-03-2015, 06:40 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 05:10 AM)Dom Wrote:  The thing with woo is that it cannot be disproved.

The human imagination is a very important attribute, we need it to invent stuff. We need it to create movies and write books and create all forms of art and yes, for science.

Like all of our other attributes, imagination can also be a hindrance. Most of us have experienced something inexplicable at some point - probably some error in visual or audio perception. Most all these things can be explained if looked into, like when I could feel my husband being close by and present for quite some time after he died. Same thing as the phantom limb after amputation - the brain is so used to include something in daily processing that it continues to do so after the item is gone.

That said, our reality is limited to what we can perceive with the senses we have or prove through science. What we perceive and what, for instance, our dogs perceive, is totally different. Dogs can "smell the past", they can smell an object and know much of it's history, including who handled it previously, what other objects used to be near it and all kinds of things that we cannot perceive. Stands to reason that different species on this globe include different things in their perception. This is a mostly unexplored phenomenon, and one I think would solve many of our questions.

Now, when you watch a person or animal die, there is an energy that is here one moment and gone the next. This is what gave rise to the perception of a soul. Now, identity and memory lie in the brain, and certainly the brain is not escaping at the time of death. So this "energy" is not a rebirth of the same identity, it is something that recycles just like everything on this planet does eventually. When things recycle, they do not stay as one unit but are broken down in to small fragments and mingle with other fragments to form something new that gets utilized by something else...

So I cannot poopoo the idea that something intangible, something we do not know how to measure or identify, escapes at the time of death. At this junction I have to say that I don't know. What does stand to reason is that this "energy" (for lack of a better word) has no identity and will be fragmented in a process of being recycled.

Basically, learning the truth about this would be very interesting, but it would not change that death is death and nothing survives. Everything gets recycled to benefit another organism, eventually. In that fashion it lives on, fragmented and without identity. Whether this process includes some sort of "energy" or not is a matter of curiosity, but knowing the answer will likely not affect our perception of death in any way - we die and get recycled.

One important point is that death is not an event at a point in time - it is a process.
The cessation of breathing is not death; the heart stopping is not death. Death comes over an organism cell by cell, function by function. There is no 'life energy' that has to go anywhere. There is no elan vital.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-03-2015, 07:42 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 06:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 05:10 AM)Dom Wrote:  The thing with woo is that it cannot be disproved.

The human imagination is a very important attribute, we need it to invent stuff. We need it to create movies and write books and create all forms of art and yes, for science.

Like all of our other attributes, imagination can also be a hindrance. Most of us have experienced something inexplicable at some point - probably some error in visual or audio perception. Most all these things can be explained if looked into, like when I could feel my husband being close by and present for quite some time after he died. Same thing as the phantom limb after amputation - the brain is so used to include something in daily processing that it continues to do so after the item is gone.

That said, our reality is limited to what we can perceive with the senses we have or prove through science. What we perceive and what, for instance, our dogs perceive, is totally different. Dogs can "smell the past", they can smell an object and know much of it's history, including who handled it previously, what other objects used to be near it and all kinds of things that we cannot perceive. Stands to reason that different species on this globe include different things in their perception. This is a mostly unexplored phenomenon, and one I think would solve many of our questions.

Now, when you watch a person or animal die, there is an energy that is here one moment and gone the next. This is what gave rise to the perception of a soul. Now, identity and memory lie in the brain, and certainly the brain is not escaping at the time of death. So this "energy" is not a rebirth of the same identity, it is something that recycles just like everything on this planet does eventually. When things recycle, they do not stay as one unit but are broken down in to small fragments and mingle with other fragments to form something new that gets utilized by something else...

So I cannot poopoo the idea that something intangible, something we do not know how to measure or identify, escapes at the time of death. At this junction I have to say that I don't know. What does stand to reason is that this "energy" (for lack of a better word) has no identity and will be fragmented in a process of being recycled.

Basically, learning the truth about this would be very interesting, but it would not change that death is death and nothing survives. Everything gets recycled to benefit another organism, eventually. In that fashion it lives on, fragmented and without identity. Whether this process includes some sort of "energy" or not is a matter of curiosity, but knowing the answer will likely not affect our perception of death in any way - we die and get recycled.

One important point is that death is not an event at a point in time - it is a process.
The cessation of breathing is not death; the heart stopping is not death. Death comes over an organism cell by cell, function by function. There is no 'life energy' that has to go anywhere. There is no elan vital.

Maybe not. The bodily function that ceases first is identified as the cause of death. But this is not necessarily the moment when all function ceases.

We have kept dead people alive so to speak, like a pregnant woman, dead, but we have kept the body going until the baby can survive. There the energy leaves the body long after the actual death. Death has occurred long ago, but we can still perceive the final disappearance of energy when life support is disconnected.

I don't know, I am not ready to defend or discard either position. What I am saying though is that we are limited in our perceptions and that I am quite sure that many, many things exist that we cannot perceive or measure. Which brings me back to my general position that we don't know shit - yet.

The whole issue though is just a mental exercise, whatever the truth is here, it won't affect anything, we still die and there is no afterlife that involves identity.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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