Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
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09-03-2015, 08:26 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 07:42 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 06:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  One important point is that death is not an event at a point in time - it is a process.
The cessation of breathing is not death; the heart stopping is not death. Death comes over an organism cell by cell, function by function. There is no 'life energy' that has to go anywhere. There is no elan vital.

Maybe not. The bodily function that ceases first is identified as the cause of death. But this is not necessarily the moment when all function ceases.

We have kept dead people alive so to speak, like a pregnant woman, dead, but we have kept the body going until the baby can survive. There the energy leaves the body long after the actual death. Death has occurred long ago, but we can still perceive the final disappearance of energy when life support is disconnected.

I don't know, I am not ready to defend or discard either position. What I am saying though is that we are limited in our perceptions and that I am quite sure that many, many things exist that we cannot perceive or measure. Which brings me back to my general position that we don't know shit - yet.

The whole issue though is just a mental exercise, whatever the truth is here, it won't affect anything, we still die and there is no afterlife that involves identity.

We know, in the scientific beyond-a-reasonable-doubt sense, that there is no 'energy leaving the body' at death. We know there is no 'life energy'.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-03-2015, 08:40 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
As far as anyone thinking cognition can exist outside a biological process(NOT TALKING ABOUT AI), just cognition in evolutionary biology.

There is no such thing as ghosts, anymore than gods exist. These bullshit superstitions are really nothing more than our human imagination. It is a reflection of our fears and ego in our ignorance in not wanting to face our finite existence.

When your brain dies, you die. You are your brain in motion. It would be no different than if you smashed your computer into unusable parts. Those unusable parts will NOT function like the prior in tact brain.

Certainly people have "experiences" and even mass delusions spread because of popularity. But this is because humans do not understand how easily their own brains can fool them. Seeing something does not mean you understand what is really going on.

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09-03-2015, 09:30 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 08:26 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 07:42 AM)Dom Wrote:  Maybe not. The bodily function that ceases first is identified as the cause of death. But this is not necessarily the moment when all function ceases.

We have kept dead people alive so to speak, like a pregnant woman, dead, but we have kept the body going until the baby can survive. There the energy leaves the body long after the actual death. Death has occurred long ago, but we can still perceive the final disappearance of energy when life support is disconnected.

I don't know, I am not ready to defend or discard either position. What I am saying though is that we are limited in our perceptions and that I am quite sure that many, many things exist that we cannot perceive or measure. Which brings me back to my general position that we don't know shit - yet.

The whole issue though is just a mental exercise, whatever the truth is here, it won't affect anything, we still die and there is no afterlife that involves identity.

We know, in the scientific beyond-a-reasonable-doubt sense, that there is no 'energy leaving the body' at death. We know there is no 'life energy'.

We know that there is nothing currently measurable leaving the body at death. We don't know what we don't know.

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09-03-2015, 09:54 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 09:30 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 08:26 AM)Chas Wrote:  We know, in the scientific beyond-a-reasonable-doubt sense, that there is no 'energy leaving the body' at death. We know there is no 'life energy'.

We know that there is nothing currently measurable leaving the body at death. We don't know what we don't know.

Scientific knowledge is provisional; it is always provisional.
That said, there is absolutely no reason to even suspect that there is a life force.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-03-2015, 10:00 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 09:54 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 09:30 AM)Dom Wrote:  We know that there is nothing currently measurable leaving the body at death. We don't know what we don't know.

Scientific knowledge is provisional; it is always provisional.
That said, there is absolutely no reason to even suspect that there is a life force.

Yes but that being said, I am not a fan of the baby spliters who don't want to use the trash can of bad ideas "just in case". It is ok to scrap bad claims. And knowing the abundant evidence that humans make up gods, and the lack of evidence for any of them. I will not lose any sleep scrapping the meaningless term "god". It is nothing more than a reflection of human fear and ego in the ignorance of not wanting to face our finite reality as a species.

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09-03-2015, 11:12 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 09:54 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 09:30 AM)Dom Wrote:  We know that there is nothing currently measurable leaving the body at death. We don't know what we don't know.

Scientific knowledge is provisional; it is always provisional.
That said, there is absolutely no reason to even suspect that there is a life force.

Only my own personal perceptions lead me to suspect it. No scientific reasons, nor woo reasons. Based on my own experiences, I am not closing the book on this one way or another.

That said, I've been going down a journey of wrapping my head around the importance of perception in evolution. All life seems to have developed it's own brand of perception, based on what worked best. We sorely lack an understanding of how other life forms perceive. If we could reproduce and experience all the different ways to perceive, I think all kinds of things would suddenly unravel...there is a whole world of knowledge hidden in there.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-03-2015, 01:27 PM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 11:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 09:54 AM)Chas Wrote:  Scientific knowledge is provisional; it is always provisional.
That said, there is absolutely no reason to even suspect that there is a life force.

Only my own personal perceptions lead me to suspect it. No scientific reasons, nor woo reasons. Based on my own experiences, I am not closing the book on this one way or another.

That said, I've been going down a journey of wrapping my head around the importance of perception in evolution. All life seems to have developed it's own brand of perception, based on what worked best. We sorely lack an understanding of how other life forms perceive. If we could reproduce and experience all the different ways to perceive, I think all kinds of things would suddenly unravel...there is a whole world of knowledge hidden in there.

Yeah, but even though we might have trouble imagining how a Mantis Shrimp sees the world with it's 17 optic cones and rods (in comparison to our 3, or a dog's 2), we can still measure photons. We know what light is, it's properties, and we can measure it.

We also know enough about how the universe works to be fairly confident that there are no forces or energies left to be discovered that can perceptibly affect us. If there was a life force or other energy tied to life on this planet, we'd have detected it by now.

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09-03-2015, 04:42 PM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 01:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 11:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  Only my own personal perceptions lead me to suspect it. No scientific reasons, nor woo reasons. Based on my own experiences, I am not closing the book on this one way or another.

That said, I've been going down a journey of wrapping my head around the importance of perception in evolution. All life seems to have developed it's own brand of perception, based on what worked best. We sorely lack an understanding of how other life forms perceive. If we could reproduce and experience all the different ways to perceive, I think all kinds of things would suddenly unravel...there is a whole world of knowledge hidden in there.

Yeah, but even though we might have trouble imagining how a Mantis Shrimp sees the world with it's 17 optic cones and rods (in comparison to our 3, or a dog's 2), we can still measure photons. We know what light is, it's properties, and we can measure it.

We also know enough about how the universe works to be fairly confident that there are no forces or energies left to be discovered that can perceptibly affect us. If there was a life force or other energy tied to life on this planet, we'd have detected it by now.

It's not the inferior qualities we would learn from, it's the superior ones. Cops would just love to be able to perceive what a dog can perceive, for example. So would doctors.

Quote: If there was a life force or other energy tied to life on this planet, we'd have detected it by now.

Oh, I don't think so at all. We have plenty reason to be proud of our advances in knowledge over the last couple centuries. A couple centuries from now, people will be mighty proud to have advanced in knowledge over us. We most certainly don't know everything there is, and we will continue to make discoveries.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-03-2015, 05:02 PM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 09:30 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 08:26 AM)Chas Wrote:  We know, in the scientific beyond-a-reasonable-doubt sense, that there is no 'energy leaving the body' at death. We know there is no 'life energy'.

We know that there is nothing currently measurable leaving the body at death. We don't know what we don't know.

So the fuck what? Ochams razor and law of probability make it a safe bet you can throw the concept of an afterlife in the trash can of bad claims and not lose anything. There is far more evidence that these claims are a matter of delusion and gap filling and even mental illness.

There is no "afterlife" all life is finite and always has been. If you are going to split the baby just because we "technically" don't know, then a cockroach or blade of grass could "possibly" have "something" live after them.

I think it is much more reasonable that humans don't understand how easily their brains can fool them. Why is it ok to treat humans as special with this concept but not other life? Why? Because humans don't understand that this false hope is nothing but in their head and a reflection of their own fears and egos.

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09-03-2015, 05:16 PM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 05:02 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 09:30 AM)Dom Wrote:  We know that there is nothing currently measurable leaving the body at death. We don't know what we don't know.

So the fuck what? Ochams razor and law of probability make it a safe bet you can throw the concept of an afterlife in the trash can of bad claims and not lose anything. There is far more evidence that these claims are a matter of delusion and gap filling and even mental illness.

There is no "afterlife" all life is finite and always has been. If you are going to split the baby just because we "technically" don't know, then a cockroach or blade of grass could "possibly" have "something" live after them.

I think it is much more reasonable that humans don't understand how easily their brains can fool them. Why is it ok to treat humans as special with this concept but not other life? Why? Because humans don't understand that this false hope is nothing but in their head and a reflection of their own fears and egos.

I guess you didn't read my posts. Unless you are not addressing me.

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