Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
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09-03-2015, 05:24 PM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 05:16 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 05:02 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  So the fuck what? Ochams razor and law of probability make it a safe bet you can throw the concept of an afterlife in the trash can of bad claims and not lose anything. There is far more evidence that these claims are a matter of delusion and gap filling and even mental illness.

There is no "afterlife" all life is finite and always has been. If you are going to split the baby just because we "technically" don't know, then a cockroach or blade of grass could "possibly" have "something" live after them.

I think it is much more reasonable that humans don't understand how easily their brains can fool them. Why is it ok to treat humans as special with this concept but not other life? Why? Because humans don't understand that this false hope is nothing but in their head and a reflection of their own fears and egos.

I guess you didn't read my posts. Unless you are not addressing me.

"We don't know what we don't know" sounds like splitting the baby out of a false sense of fairness. My point is there is lots we do know, and I am not afraid of scraping bad claims.

It is the same as saying "Technically since we have not lived the future monkeys might fly out of my ass". All I was saying was "I don't know" does not mean we have to cling to the past and bad claims.

If splitting the baby was not the intent of "We don't know what we don't know" then please clarify. Don't take that personally. Seriously I get that fence sitting from both theists and even pc atheists, all the time.

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09-03-2015, 05:57 PM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 05:24 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 05:16 PM)Dom Wrote:  I guess you didn't read my posts. Unless you are not addressing me.

"We don't know what we don't know" sounds like splitting the baby out of a false sense of fairness. My point is there is lots we do know, and I am not afraid of scraping bad claims.

It is the same as saying "Technically since we have not lived the future monkeys might fly out of my ass". All I was saying was "I don't know" does not mean we have to cling to the past and bad claims.

If splitting the baby was not the intent of "We don't know what we don't know" then please clarify. Don't take that personally. Seriously I get that fence sitting from both theists and even pc atheists, all the time.

First of all, what is splitting the baby supposed to mean?

Secondly, exactly what past am I clinging to?

Thirdly, what about what I said has anything to do with religion?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-03-2015, 06:36 PM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 04:42 PM)Dom Wrote:  It's not the inferior qualities we would learn from, it's the superior ones. Cops would just love to be able to perceive what a dog can perceive, for example. So would doctors.

Mantis Shrimp have eyes far superior to our own, able to perceive a far wider slice of the electromagnetic spectrum. However we have eyes superior to canines, as they are partially colorblind and see a smaller slice of the electromagnetic spectrum (this is why a dog will have trouble finding a blue ball out on a green grass yard).


(09-03-2015 04:42 PM)Dom Wrote:  
Quote:If there was a life force or other energy tied to life on this planet, we'd have detected it by now.
Oh, I don't think so at all. We have plenty reason to be proud of our advances in knowledge over the last couple centuries. A couple centuries from now, people will be mighty proud to have advanced in knowledge over us. We most certainly don't know everything there is, and we will continue to make discoveries.

Yeah, but we're not going to trip over something as fundamental as gravity or electromagnetism, forces that actually have a perceptible and measurable affect on us, anytime soon. We might discover others at the far end of the micro (quantum) or macro (dark energy) scales, but nothing that would affect or be tied to sustaining biological life on this planet.

There is nothing that fundamental, that would have that sort of affect on life, left to be found.

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09-03-2015, 07:04 PM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 06:36 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 04:42 PM)Dom Wrote:  It's not the inferior qualities we would learn from, it's the superior ones. Cops would just love to be able to perceive what a dog can perceive, for example. So would doctors.

Mantis Shrimp have eyes far superior to our own, able to perceive a far wider slice of the electromagnetic spectrum. However we have eyes superior to canines, as they are partially colorblind and see a smaller slice of the electromagnetic spectrum (this is why a dog will have trouble finding a blue ball out on a green grass yard).


(09-03-2015 04:42 PM)Dom Wrote:  Oh, I don't think so at all. We have plenty reason to be proud of our advances in knowledge over the last couple centuries. A couple centuries from now, people will be mighty proud to have advanced in knowledge over us. We most certainly don't know everything there is, and we will continue to make discoveries.

Yeah, but we're not going to trip over something as fundamental as gravity or electromagnetism, forces that actually have a perceptible and measurable affect on us, anytime soon. We might discover others at the far end of the micro (quantum) or macro (dark energy) scales, but nothing that would affect or be tied to sustaining biological life on this planet.

There is nothing that fundamental, that would have that sort of affect on life, left to be found.

Pluto will find the ball with his nose, not his eyes. He will also know who all has touched it in recent history, and what those folks touched before they touched the ball. There is evidence that he may even know their health status, in some cases at least.

That's just it, evolution picked certain traits over others, with us it's eyes and dexterity, the dog has scent and hearing and so on. It is also possible that there are senses in other life forms we have not detected because - well - our own senses and measurements are not able to detect them and thusly we are not looking for them...

Like I wrote before, this is merely an exercise in curiosity, because even if there was something to be recycled at death time that we have not been able to perceive or measure as yet, it would not affect anything. It would be fragmented and recycled like everything else on the planet. So, such a discovery really wouldn't change anything. It would fill the gap that is filled by the soul now. All religion just fills gaps in knowledge, discoveries fill these gaps with facts.

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10-03-2015, 12:47 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 08:40 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  As far as anyone thinking cognition can exist outside a biological process(NOT TALKING ABOUT AI), just cognition in evolutionary biology.

There is no such thing as ghosts, anymore than gods exist. These bullshit superstitions are really nothing more than our human imagination. It is a reflection of our fears and ego in our ignorance in not wanting to face our finite existence.

When your brain dies, you die. You are your brain in motion. It would be no different than if you smashed your computer into unusable parts. Those unusable parts will NOT function like the prior in tact brain.
Another aspect worth pondering is relative motion.

Ghosts and god don't have physical substance. They don't interact with gravity or with electro-magnetic forces. They aren't made up of fermions. Fermions are the reason why objects bump into each other, the reason why we experience friction when we rub up against another object.

When we sit down still and look out at the hills and trees, we see them at rest. No motion. But actually they are traveling very fast. They are spinning as the Earth rotates and with spin comes acceleration. The trees spin because the Earth is spinning and the trees are attached to the Earth and the atoms of the Earth exert a force which makes the trees spin at the same rate. It the trees were bossons and hence able to occupy the same space as other things then they would fall through the centre of the Earth as the curvature of SpaceTime means that this is the straight path through SpaceTime. If we weren't affected by gravity then we wouldn't travel in the same elipse that the Earth does as it travels around the Sun.

In fact if you were a ghost or a god and were unaffected by gravity or friction or atoms etc, you would have a very difficult time trying to stay still relative to an object on the surface of the Earth. As far as we know, all things without mass travel at the speed of light, they cannot travel less than that (unless of course they are traveling through a substance). Anyway, there are many, many issues with ghost or god myths.
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10-03-2015, 12:56 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2015 04:12 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(09-03-2015 07:04 PM)Dom Wrote:  So, such a discovery really wouldn't change anything. It would fill the gap that is filled by the soul now. All religion just fills gaps in knowledge, discoveries fill these gaps with facts.


Just don't go around assuming there is a soul-shaped gap that needs to be filled.

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10-03-2015, 03:37 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
I don't think people who believe in supernatural properties other than god are less atheistic than me, but they aren't rational. You are still an atheist, but not a coherent one. For me atheism leads inevitably to complete rejection of the supernatural because the same arguments that we use against god's existence can be used against the supernatural

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-03-2015, 04:25 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(10-03-2015 12:56 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 07:04 PM)Dom Wrote:  So, such a discovery really wouldn't change anything. It would fill the gap that is filled by the soul now. All religion just fills gaps in knowledge, discoveries fill these gaps with facts.


Just don't go around assuming their is a soul-shaped gap that needs to be filled.

I didn't say I assume it. I said I wasn't closing the book on it. I said that after witnessing a number of deaths I can see why this topic comes up over and over again. I said that based on my subjective and limited exposure I was skeptical of all existing perceptions regarding this.

I also said that I understood how people came to believe in ghosts, based on the "phantom limb" phenomenon, when the brain has gotten so used to including an item in it's daily functioning that removal of said item won't stop that process. When you spend 30 years with a person, every day, and then remove that person, the brain keeps on referencing that person for some time afterwards.

You don't solve age old misconceptions by saying "bullshit" and walking away. If we did that, we would never advance in anything. You ask why. You always ask why.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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10-03-2015, 04:46 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(10-03-2015 04:25 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 12:56 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Just don't go around assuming their is a soul-shaped gap that needs to be filled.
You don't solve age old misconceptions by saying "bullshit" and walking away. If we did that, we would never advance in anything. You ask why. You always ask why.

We can entirely explain the concept of souls without needing physics, all we need is cultural anthropology.

Plus there's plenty of work that has been done on things like acupuncture, chi, homeopathy, and spinal sublimation, all showing that it's nothing but unfounded bullshit; and that doesn't stop people. Undecided

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10-03-2015, 07:06 AM
RE: Belief in ghosts and other nonsense.
(10-03-2015 04:46 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 04:25 AM)Dom Wrote:  You don't solve age old misconceptions by saying "bullshit" and walking away. If we did that, we would never advance in anything. You ask why. You always ask why.

We can entirely explain the concept of souls without needing physics, all we need is cultural anthropology.

Plus there's plenty of work that has been done on things like acupuncture, chi, homeopathy, and spinal sublimation, all showing that it's nothing but unfounded bullshit; and that doesn't stop people. Undecided

And that relates to my posts how?

It does, however, relate to the OP and I agree with you.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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