Belief versus reality
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22-10-2017, 08:58 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2017 09:13 PM by Robvalue.)
RE: Belief versus reality
(22-10-2017 02:39 PM)Ignorant Wrote:  
(22-10-2017 06:59 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I couldn't say, because I wasn't able to understand what your beliefs were. We did have some of the most interesting philosophical conversations I have had though! [1]

PS, I don't think you're in denial of reality, I think you have woven the God concept into reality as far as I could tell. It made it not so much inconsistent as incoherent. [2]

PPS, I do remember a very strange phrase you used that I meant to ask you about. You said, "I know [such and such] is true, through faith", or something similar. I had no idea what that meant, in real terms. [3]

1) Fair enough!

2) Fair.

3) In the simplest terms, it has to do with the means of knowledge.

The means by which I know that reality truly includes and depends upon a subsistent and immaterial thing: natural human intellect

The means by which I know the subsistent and immaterial thing is truly identifiable with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as revealed by Jesus of Nazareth: faith

I am a theist because my reason will not allow me to be otherwise.
I am a Christian because that god has given me knowledge of his identity.
I know the latter sounds ridiculous (especially as this is only my 3rd post), but that is essentially what I mean when I say, "I know [whatever] is true, through faith."

Cheers.

Thanks for your replies Smile

It's great to have theists that can take honest answers on the nose without getting emotionally defensive, and who can see how things would appear from our point of view.

It seemed to me, from what I remember, that you defined being a theist in such a way that it's impossible for anyone not to be one. This is what I mean by the incoherent/redundant nature of "God". It read like a kind of pantheistic belief system whereby there's no way to distinguish between there being a God and not being one.

Also, from what some people told me, this is based on some Catholic teachings which I believe originated as a way to "hide" the God concept by people who realized how little the traditional "God" had to do with reality.

Thanks for explaining the stuff about faith, but as you predicted... I can't understand it at all Smile

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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22-10-2017, 09:47 PM
RE: Belief versus reality
(22-10-2017 04:23 PM)Free Wrote:  So, does that not indicate that the origin of your faith again goes back to the Bible? [1]

Is it not possible that the origin of your learning of God is the result of you "Having a conversation with a human being. Encountering the community which is historically continuous with the community that produced the bible. etc?" [2]

1) No. It indicates that the origin of my faith goes back to a person, and the community he began. (Usually, the authors of books precede the authoring of the books, lol)

2) No. The origin of my learning of "god" (i.e. theism) is the result of my own rational examination of the cosmos.
The origin of my learning that god is Triune and cares about the cosmos, etc. (i.e. Christianity) is the result of me "Having a conversation with a human being. Encountering the community which is historically continuous with the community that produced the bible. etc"

Is it really that hard to conceptually distinguish "theism" from "Christianity"?
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22-10-2017, 09:56 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2017 10:02 PM by Ignorant.)
RE: Belief versus reality
(22-10-2017 04:33 PM)unfogged Wrote:  You claimed to know based on faith. Now you say you are not using faith. You are not making sense. All you appear to be doing is avoiding answering simple questions. [1]

Not if they are based in faith which isl l you have offered so far. [2]

If you do not have rational reasons for your beliefs then your beliefs are, by definition, irrational. [3]

Nobody. I was trying to get to why you seem to think that having faith and using it to form beliefs/conclusions/whatever leads to anything related to knowledge. [4]

1) No. I claimed to know that "theism" is true through reason. I claimed to know specific things about god (things which reason couldn't possibly hope to conclude on its own e.g. god's name, etc.) through faith.

2) Well, all you are asking about are the things I hold through faith. That isn't usually an interesting discussion for those who not only lack faith, but radically disagree with simpler, more fundamental rational issues like theism vs. atheism.

3) Ah, I can understand why you might think that. Theism is rational. That god cares about any one of us is neither rational nor irrational, it is simply unknowable through reason. If we were to know it at all, he'd have to tell us directly, and we'd have to trust that a) it's really god, and b) he's telling the truth. Assuming the affirmative for a and b, we would now know something through faith which is not opposed to reason and yet still unknowable through reason alone.

4) I don't use faith to affirm the truth of theism. I don't "use" faith to form beliefs/conclusions/whatever. Faith is the word to describe this weird mysterious experience in which you know something that cannot be rationally proven because god gives you the knowledge directly rather than by rational syllogism and investigation.
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22-10-2017, 10:07 PM
RE: Belief versus reality
(22-10-2017 07:24 PM)mordant Wrote:  Iggy, you have too good a sense of humor and too good a sense of the absurd to be an evangelical. If you don't mind saying so, what is your denomination of choice? [1]

As someone else pointed out, faith does not tend to lead toward truth, where truth = that which is grounded in and accurately represents reality. I rejected it long ago as a failed epistemology. Faith is simply buying assertions without requiring that they be substantiated. One's motivation should in my view be to understand how reality actually works, not to simply believe things about how you'd like it to work. [2]

1) Lol, I hope I have a good sense of humor, and I'm glad you appreciate the humor too. I am Catholic. I like to party.

2) If by reality, you mean the material cosmos, then I agree wholeheartedly. My holding that theism is true has nothing to do with faith.
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22-10-2017, 10:20 PM
RE: Belief versus reality
(22-10-2017 02:39 PM)Ignorant Wrote:  
(22-10-2017 06:59 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I couldn't say, because I wasn't able to understand what your beliefs were. We did have some of the most interesting philosophical conversations I have had though! [1]

PS, I don't think you're in denial of reality, I think you have woven the God concept into reality as far as I could tell. It made it not so much inconsistent as incoherent. [2]

PPS, I do remember a very strange phrase you used that I meant to ask you about. You said, "I know [such and such] is true, through faith", or something similar. I had no idea what that meant, in real terms. [3]

1) Fair enough!

2) Fair.

3) In the simplest terms, it has to do with the means of knowledge.

The means by which I know that reality truly includes and depends upon a subsistent and immaterial thing: natural human intellect

The means by which I know the subsistent and immaterial thing is truly identifiable with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as revealed by Jesus of Nazareth: faith

I am a theist because my reason will not allow me to be otherwise.
I am a Christian because that god has given me knowledge of his identity.
I know the latter sounds ridiculous (especially as this is only my 3rd post), but that is essentially what I mean when I say, "I know [whatever] is true, through faith."

Cheers.

The only things you *think* you know about the gods, came ONLY from the culture in which you LEARNED them. There is NOT ONE thing that's weird or special, that cannot be tracked to cultural origins, in any faith system. Why not "God the Mother, God the Daughter, and god the Holy Spirit ? We live in a patriarchal society, thus gods in the West are male. In fact, the notion that any god has the attributes of either sex is preposterous. Knowing the identity of a particular god has nothing to do with the claims of a certain religion being true. No one can "know" anything "through faith". That's nothing different than a psychopath telling himself he knows something insane because of chemical activity in his brain. If you are a theist because of "reason", then you are no Christian. Faith is one of the "gifts of the Spirit", and thinking one can "reason" one's way to faith, is actually heretical, in Christianity. "No one shall come to me, unless the father draw him".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-10-2017, 10:22 PM
RE: Belief versus reality
(22-10-2017 10:07 PM)Ignorant Wrote:  My holding that theism is true has nothing to do with faith.

Quote:"I say, "I know [whatever] is true, through faith."

You're obviously very confused.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-10-2017, 12:09 AM
RE: Belief versus reality
(22-10-2017 10:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The only things you *think* you know about the gods, came ONLY from the culture in which you LEARNED them. There is NOT ONE thing that's weird or special, that cannot be tracked to cultural origins, in any faith system. Why not "God the Mother, God the Daughter, and god the Holy Spirit ? We live in a patriarchal society, thus gods in the West are male. [1] In fact, the notion that any god has the attributes of either sex is preposterous. Knowing the identity of a particular god has nothing to do with the claims of a certain religion being true. No one can "know" anything "through faith". [2] That's nothing different than a psychopath telling himself he knows something insane because of chemical activity in his brain. If you are a theist because of "reason", then you are no Christian. Faith is one of the "gifts of the Spirit", and thinking one can "reason" one's way to faith, is actually heretical, in Christianity. "No one shall come to me, unless the father draw him". [3]

Thanks for the short lesson.

1) The only reason not "God the Mother/Daughter/HS" is that Jesus, instead, taught us God the Father/Son/HS. I'm not sure why it matters to you given what comes next?

2) Fair enough. I promise that I won't demand of you to affirm that my beliefs about Christianity are knowledge or even that they are true. Fair?

3) I agree. You can't reason yourself to the articles of Christian faith (e.g. trinity, incarnation, resurrection, etc.) That something like god exists, however, is not an article of faith. Hence: Theism by reason, Christian by faith.

Is that such a difficult distinction?
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23-10-2017, 12:13 AM
RE: Belief versus reality
(22-10-2017 10:22 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(22-10-2017 10:07 PM)Ignorant Wrote:  My holding that theism is true has nothing to do with faith.

Quote:"I say, "I know [whatever] is true, through faith."

You're obviously very confused.

Lol! More like you are confused due to my lacking clarity.

Aristotle was a theist, and he wasn't a Christian.
Plotinus was a theist, and he wasn't a Christian.
Augustine was a theist, and he was a Christian.
I am a theist, and I am a Christian.

Aristotle and Plotinus were philosophical theists. Their affirmation of the truth of theism had nothing to do with faith.

Augustine and I are philosophical theists. Our affirmation of the truth of theism has nothing to do with faith.

Augustine and I are Christians. Our belief in Christianity (a particular sort of theism), which is consistent with and based upon our philosophical theism, has everything to do with faith.
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23-10-2017, 12:20 AM
RE: Belief versus reality
(23-10-2017 12:09 AM)Ignorant Wrote:  That something like god exists, however, is not an article of faith. Hence: Theism by reason, Christian by faith.

If it is not an article of faith then it is supported by empirical evidence. You can't simply reason a god into existence. If you disagree then you will surely demonstrate otherwise.

No gods necessary.
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23-10-2017, 12:23 AM
RE: Belief versus reality
(22-10-2017 05:13 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Iggy, (Do you mind if I call you Iggy ? Ignorant sounds too spot on and I'm hoping you aren't.) [1]

...

Faith is not a pathway to truth.
The faith and convictions of theists who believe things differently from you and contradict your beliefs are also using faith. [2]

Science provides us with the most reliable answers to the questions we have about our shared, observable reality. Those answers can be demonstrated and independently verified with repeatable results that give us a high degree of trust. [3]

Faith doesn't do any of those things.
Faith is what you lean against when you have given up on finding what the truth is. [4]

Could you take it on faith that automobiles run on chicken soup instead of gasoline ? [5]

...

Faith is simply a useless concept that does nothing and provides no answers. [6]

If you value the truth, then you need to demonstrate truth. [7]

1) Call me whatever you'd like.

2) They are using the word "faith", yes. If my faith is truly what I think it is, it logically demands that their use of the word is inaccurate or, at best, only partially accurate. I get that.

3) Agreed.

4) Have you read what I said faith was? My claim is way weirder and more radical and difficult to accept. I am claiming that god himself is giving me access to knowledge of things about which the human mind is naturally incapable.

5) Depends on who is telling me. If a physicist tells me that a car is running on chicken soup, I am usually deferential, and give him the benefit of the doubt that perhaps he found a way to run a car on chicken soup. Even so, I would like to see it for myself. If anyone just says that cars, in general, actually run on chicken soup and not gasoline, I would challenge them.

6) Well, it certainly won't provide you answers to questions about fuel for automobiles (and similar questions about the cosmos).

7) I do value it, and I care about demonstrating it when possible.
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