Belief versus reality
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23-10-2017, 12:33 AM
RE: Belief versus reality
(23-10-2017 12:20 AM)brunumb Wrote:  If it is not an article of faith then it is supported by empirical evidence. [1]

You can't simply reason a god into existence. If you disagree then you will surely demonstrate otherwise. [2]

1) Non sequitur. Can you help me out and let me know how the negation of the condition logically demands the conclusion?

2) If I had the time and the desire to demonstrate god's existence in a way and language agreeable to you, believe me, I'd be doing it left and right. Since I lack the time, desire, and ability to translate my understanding of the demonstration into the concepts and language common to both of us, I won't be trying. As I have invited someone else before... you can look up yourself the difference between an essentially ordered causal series, and a temporally ordered causal series. My experience is that people these days have no concept of an essentially ordered causal series, and they assume that any causal series can only be temporally ordered. It's hard to discuss the essential basis of reality with that disconnect.
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23-10-2017, 12:35 AM
RE: Belief versus reality
That everyone is failing to distinguish between philosophical theism and religious theism is telling for the state of rational discussion about theism.
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23-10-2017, 12:36 AM
RE: Belief versus reality
(23-10-2017 12:23 AM)Ignorant Wrote:  I am claiming that god himself is giving me access to knowledge of things about which the human mind is naturally incapable.


What criteria do you apply to distinguish between those things that simply arise from your imagination and those things that you decide have been sourced from God? How do you apply those criteria in order to make your evaluation?

No gods necessary.
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23-10-2017, 12:40 AM
RE: Belief versus reality
(23-10-2017 12:33 AM)Ignorant Wrote:  If I had the time and the desire to demonstrate god's existence in a way and language agreeable to you, believe me, I'd be doing it left and right. Since I lack the time, desire, and ability to translate my understanding of the demonstration into the concepts and language common to both of us, I won't be trying.

In other words you are just another time waster.

Play your silly games elsewhere Ignorant.

No gods necessary.
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23-10-2017, 12:43 AM
RE: Belief versus reality
(23-10-2017 12:35 AM)Ignorant Wrote:  That everyone is failing to distinguish between philosophical theism and religious theism is telling for the state of rational discussion about theism.

I'm always careful to distinguish the two. I find the former to be so loosely defined ("God"), and subject to be totally changed by anyone making the claim, that it's rather a meaningless phrase though. I just ask everyone what they mean.

My question is: how do you know it's "God" giving you information, and not some trickster? What implications do you think there would be if you're wrong about the source?

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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23-10-2017, 12:52 AM
RE: Belief versus reality
Also, what do you think about Muslims also getting information from God, telling them that their religion is the right one? What do you think is going on?

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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23-10-2017, 12:56 AM
RE: Belief versus reality
(23-10-2017 12:40 AM)brunumb Wrote:  
(23-10-2017 12:33 AM)Ignorant Wrote:  If I had the time and the desire to demonstrate god's existence in a way and language agreeable to you, believe me, I'd be doing it left and right. Since I lack the time, desire, and ability to translate my understanding of the demonstration into the concepts and language common to both of us, I won't be trying.

In other words you are just another time waster.

Play your silly games elsewhere Ignorant.

Feel free to ignore me.

If the admins deem my posts as unwelcome or inappropriate, they may kick me out. I contribute here at their discretion.
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23-10-2017, 12:59 AM
RE: Belief versus reality
(23-10-2017 12:43 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm always careful to distinguish the two. I find the former to be so loosely defined ("God"), and subject to be totally changed by anyone making the claim, that it's rather a meaningless phrase though. I just ask everyone what they mean. [1]

My question is: how do you know it's "God" giving you information, and not some trickster? What implications do you think there would be if you're wrong about the source? [2]

1) I appreciate that, and (as you can tell from this thread) you are one of the few.

2) It sounds strange to say, but the mystery of it all is that he is himself the certainty. Again, it's hard to explain.

If I were wrong about the source, I imagine my life would end up being pretty miserable, as well as making life miserable for others. As far as I can tell, that isn't the case (but that is not therefore proof that I am right about the source).
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23-10-2017, 01:05 AM
RE: Belief versus reality
(23-10-2017 12:52 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Also, what do you think about Muslims also getting information from God, telling them that their religion is the right one? What do you think is going on?

I am not sure what to think about it. It could be any number of things. At best, some of their information truly comes from god, and the rest is Muhammed's personal projection onto that experience as it is handed down in the Quran. At worst, it is entirely Muhammed's personal projection onto a poorly formed philosophical theism as it is handed down in the Quran. It's probably somewhere in the middle.
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23-10-2017, 01:17 AM
RE: Belief versus reality
(23-10-2017 01:05 AM)Ignorant Wrote:  
(23-10-2017 12:52 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Also, what do you think about Muslims also getting information from God, telling them that their religion is the right one? What do you think is going on?

I am not sure what to think about it. It could be any number of things. At best, some of their information truly comes from god, and the rest is Muhammed's personal projection onto that experience as it is handed down in the Quran. At worst, it is entirely Muhammed's personal projection onto a poorly formed philosophical theism as it is handed down in the Quran. It's probably somewhere in the middle.

I would like to think that if there is a god, and he insists on deciding between two (or more) different levels of afterlives, that the religion you happen to be in wouldn't count as part of the criteria. I'm hoping to start a thread about that soon actually.

With that in mind, do you think that maybe all religious theists are only getting partial information from God, and are projecting the rest of the religion onto it? After all, people are extremely likely to join the local religion.

I can't speak for the mods, but I don't think there's any way you're going to get kicked off here. You're not obliged to answer any questions you don't want to. I'm glad you're here Smile

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