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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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09-06-2016, 08:32 PM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 08:35 PM by CDF47.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
I have not personally insulted anyone in this thread and I have no personal problems with anyone here, even though I was insulted numerous times in here by multiple posters.

I answered numerous questions beginning on page 4 of 10 of this thread to the best of my ability. Please just answer only 4 questions of mine. If you can not answer these questions or can only answer some of them, that is fine as well, just say so.

Questions below:

1. Where do the information bearing properties of DNA come from?

2. Please describe the origins of genetic information.

3. DNA is located in a protein molecule. It takes DNA to build a protein. Which came first, the DNA or the protein?

4. Please provide a step-by-step natural explanation of the process of how DNA is copied and transferred to an assembly line where amino acids are linked together precisely as instructed, then formed into a functional protein, then transported to an exact location in a protein machine prior to machine operation. Explain how all the transport systems work. Explain the sequences of operation, the communication protocol, the operations of the machines, the assembly instructions, energy harvesting,.... Please explain how this all happened naturally.

Thanks.
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09-06-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 08:20 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Might as well give it up, Hobbit. He's going to take his ball and go home as soon as he realizes we won't play his game, his way, using his definitions of things. He'll probably claim (at least to himself) that he left because we're just big meanies, rather than honest people who've seen this playbook before and refuse to play that game.

Just once, I'd like to have an honest conversation with an honest Christian about this subject. Just once, I'd like to have one of them pause and say, "Oh, that's NOT what science actually claims? Well then let me adjust my opinion to account for this new information. Thanks!"

But it's never going to happen.

I'm sure you're right. Maybe somebody else will read our efforts later and it will make sense to them. It's all we can hope for. Smile

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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09-06-2016, 09:14 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I have not personally insulted anyone in this thread and I have no personal problems with anyone here, even though I was insulted numerous times in here by multiple posters.

I answered numerous questions beginning on page 4 of 10 of this thread to the best of my ability. Please just answer only 4 questions of mine. If you can not answer these questions or can only answer some of them, that is fine as well, just say so.

Questions below:

1. Where do the information bearing properties of DNA come from?

2. Please describe the origins of genetic information.

3. DNA is located in a protein molecule. It takes DNA to build a protein. Which came first, the DNA or the protein?

4. Please provide a step-by-step natural explanation of the process of how DNA is copied and transferred to an assembly line where amino acids are linked together precisely as instructed, then formed into a functional protein, then transported to an exact location in a protein machine prior to machine operation. Explain how all the transport systems work. Explain the sequences of operation, the communication protocol, the operations of the machines, the assembly instructions, energy harvesting,.... Please explain how this all happened naturally.

Thanks.

A god that creates lethal viruses to kill people is really an evil entity.

Says something about anyone that would want to call that a god.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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09-06-2016, 09:18 PM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 09:21 PM by Fatbaldhobbit.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I have not personally insulted anyone in this thread and I have no personal problems with anyone here, even though I was insulted numerous times in here by multiple posters.

I want you to think about this carefully.

While you have not called anyone names, you have done things that posters here take offense to:

You have made a large number of baseless claims with absolutely no evidence.
You have made extravagant claims without backing them up.
You have ignored refutations of your claims.

Most posters consider the above to be both dishonest and insulting. That is, I suspect, why you have received the responses you have.

ETA: You also posted dishonestly when you stated that your questions had not been answered. Multiple posters have given you answers to your questions.

(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I answered numerous questions beginning on page 4 of 10 of this thread to the best of my ability. Please just answer only 4 questions of mine. If you can not answer these questions or can only answer some of them, that is fine as well, just say so.

There are eight questions not four.

(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  1. Where do the information bearing properties of DNA come from?

DNA is a mixture of chemicals. It does not bear information. Chemicals react through natural processes. Saying DNA is a code and bears information is misleading.

(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  2. Please describe the origins of genetic information.

Genetic information is our understanding of the chemical processes that cause DNA to function. It is an inherent property of the chemicals and their reactions. Again it is not a set of instructions or a code.

(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  3. DNA is located in a protein molecule. It takes DNA to build a protein. Which came first, the DNA or the protein?

DNA.

(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  4. Please provide a step-by-step natural explanation of the process of how DNA is copied and transferred to an assembly line where amino acids are linked together precisely as instructed, then formed into a functional protein, then transported to an exact location in a protein machine prior to machine operation. Explain how all the transport systems work. Explain the sequences of operation, the communication protocol, the operations of the machines, the assembly instructions, energy harvesting,....

Here:
DNA

DNA is self replicating through chemical processes.
It is not transferred to an assembly line.
It is not precisely instructed.
It forms itself into proteins through chemical reactions.
You insist on anthropomorphizing a chemical process.
There are no communication protocols.
There are no machines.
The only assembly reactions are the inherent nature of the chemicals.

(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Please explain how this all happened naturally.
Thanks.

The explanation is included in the above link.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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10-06-2016, 06:47 AM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2016 07:02 AM by CDF47.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 09:18 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I have not personally insulted anyone in this thread and I have no personal problems with anyone here, even though I was insulted numerous times in here by multiple posters.

I want you to think about this carefully.

While you have not called anyone names, you have done things that posters here take offense to:

You have made a large number of baseless claims with absolutely no evidence.
You have made extravagant claims without backing them up.
You have ignored refutations of your claims.

Most posters consider the above to be both dishonest and insulting. That is, I suspect, why you have received the responses you have.

ETA: You also posted dishonestly when you stated that your questions had not been answered. Multiple posters have given you answers to your questions.

(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I answered numerous questions beginning on page 4 of 10 of this thread to the best of my ability. Please just answer only 4 questions of mine. If you can not answer these questions or can only answer some of them, that is fine as well, just say so.

There are eight questions not four.

(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  1. Where do the information bearing properties of DNA come from?

DNA is a mixture of chemicals. It does not bear information. Chemicals react through natural processes. Saying DNA is a code and bears information is misleading.

(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  2. Please describe the origins of genetic information.

Genetic information is our understanding of the chemical processes that cause DNA to function. It is an inherent property of the chemicals and their reactions. Again it is not a set of instructions or a code.

(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  3. DNA is located in a protein molecule. It takes DNA to build a protein. Which came first, the DNA or the protein?

DNA.

(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  4. Please provide a step-by-step natural explanation of the process of how DNA is copied and transferred to an assembly line where amino acids are linked together precisely as instructed, then formed into a functional protein, then transported to an exact location in a protein machine prior to machine operation. Explain how all the transport systems work. Explain the sequences of operation, the communication protocol, the operations of the machines, the assembly instructions, energy harvesting,....

Here:
DNA

DNA is self replicating through chemical processes.
It is not transferred to an assembly line.
It is not precisely instructed.
It forms itself into proteins through chemical reactions.
You insist on anthropomorphizing a chemical process.
There are no communication protocols.
There are no machines.
The only assembly reactions are the inherent nature of the chemicals.

(09-06-2016 08:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Please explain how this all happened naturally.
Thanks.

The explanation is included in the above link.

I made no claims without evidence. I was simply explaining some of the basics of DNA to protein creation processes and systems while answering numerous questions.

I was not ignoring refutations of my claims. No one was clearly providing explanations to my questions. I was asking if these processes appeared random/natural or designed and I got a bunch of hate filled responses many times, side tracking response, insults, and the like. Then I asked for some explanations of how these processes and systems could happen naturally and I was getting similar responses.

Now that it appears we can start having calm reasonable discussion on this topic, hopefully without personal attacks and insults, my responses to your comments are below:

My Question 1. Where do the information bearing properties of DNA come from?

Your Answer: DNA is a mixture of chemicals. It does not bear information. Chemicals react through natural processes. Saying DNA is a code and bears information is misleading.

My response: DNA contains a wealth of information in the form of precisely sequenced chemical bases that scientist represent with the letters A, C, T, and G. In a written language information is communicated by a precise arrangement of letters. In the same way, the instruction necessary to assemble amino acids into proteins are conveyed by the sequences of chemicals arranged along the spine of the DNA. This chemical code is the most densely packed and elaborately detailed assembly of information in the known universe. These are genetic assembly instructions. For more information visit your source at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA

My Question 2. Please describe the origins of genetic information.

Your Answer: Genetic information is our understanding of the chemical processes that cause DNA to function. It is an inherent property of the chemicals and their reactions. Again it is not a set of instructions or a code.

My Response: Genetic information is stored within the chemical structure of the molecule DNA. The molecule consists of two backbones, which spiral around each other in the well-known double helix formation. Strings of four chemicals, called "bases", running along the backbones bridges between bases on opposite backbones, called "base pairs." It is the order, or "sequence" of the four bases along the DNA spine that provides the instructions for making the substances of the human body. The four chemical bases are referred to by the letters A, T, C and G, and their order literally "spells" out the genetic "code." The variable sequence of bases from individual to individual is one source of biological variation.

Each person has enough genetic information that, if it were stretched out, would be the equivalent of the distance from the earth to the sun seventy times over. That is 6.5 billion miles of compressed information contained in the human body. Therefore, genetic information has to be organized and packaged tightly, while still allowing access to appropriate genes. The DNA molecule stores this genetic information.

Back to my original question, what is the origin of this genetic information? Meaning where did this extraordinary genetic code come from?

My Question 3. DNA is located in a protein molecule. It takes DNA to build a protein. Which came first, the DNA or the protein?

Your Answer: DNA.

My Response: Please provide a source. Which came first the genetic information which creates proteins or the protein molecule genetic information is stored in? I have researched this question and cannot find a sound explanation of how this happened. Also, where did the first replicators arise? How did the transition to DNA and proteins, and the development of the genetic code, occur?

My Question 4. Please provide a step-by-step natural explanation of the process of how DNA is copied and transferred to an assembly line where amino acids are linked together precisely as instructed, then formed into a functional protein, then transported to an exact location in a protein machine prior to machine operation. Explain how all the transport systems work. Explain the sequences of operation, the communication protocol, the operations of the machines, the assembly instructions, energy harvesting,....

Your Answer: Here:
DNA

DNA is self replicating through chemical processes.
It is not transferred to an assembly line.
It is not precisely instructed.
It forms itself into proteins through chemical reactions.
You insist on anthropomorphizing a chemical process.
There are no communication protocols.
There are no machines.
The only assembly reactions are the inherent nature of the chemicals.

My Response:

With all do respect, the source you provided, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA , and the links and references contained within, does not align with your responses to my questions. I read from this source in the past and I just re-read it again today since you posted it as a response to my question.

Based on your source below are my responses and comments:

Your Statement: DNA is self replicating through chemical processes.

My Response: DNA replication is actually a very complex and complicated process. Based on your source you posted, DNA replication is explained: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_replication

Your Statements: "It is not transferred to an assembly line" and "The only assembly reactions are the inherent nature of the chemicals"

My Response: The assembly line I am referring to is a ribosome which, according to your source: "The ribosome is a complex molecular machine found within all living cells, that serves as the site of biological protein synthesis (translation). Ribosomes link amino acids together in the order specified by messenger RNA (mRNA) molecules. Ribosomes consist of two major components: the small ribosomal subunit, which reads the RNA, and the large subunit, which joins amino acids to form a polypeptide chain. For more information from your source see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribosome

Also, watch this short 3 minute 34 second video which details this process and shows the amino acid mechanical assembly line (ribosome) I am referring to (go to 1 minute 35 seconds of the video to see this process in action): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkdQhNdzHU

Your Statements: "It is not precisely instructed," "It forms itself into proteins through chemical reactions," "You insist on anthropomorphizing a chemical process," and "There are no communication protocols"

My Response: Reference your source for more information on how the protein is constructed and how the information is communicated and watch the short video which explains the basics of these operations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkdQhNdzHU

Your Statement: There are no machines.

My Response: The source you cited disagrees, stating, "Molecular motors are biological molecular machines that are the essential agents of movement in living organisms." Your source cites a lot of information about molecular machines and the various different types of machines.

More information from your source related to molecular machines and molecular motors:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_machine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_motor

Additionally, the spell checker (proof reading) function in the cell processes I referred to earlier are included in the source you cited as well: "In DNA replication, DNA-dependent DNA polymerases make copies of DNA polynucleotide chains. In order to preserve biological information, it is essential that the sequence of bases in each copy are precisely complementary to the sequence of bases in the template strand. Many DNA polymerases have a proofreading activity. Here, the polymerase recognizes the occasional mistakes in the synthesis reaction by the lack of base pairing between the mismatched nucleotides. If a mismatch is detected, a 3′ to 5′ exonuclease activity is activated and the incorrect base removed. In most organisms, DNA polymerases function in a large complex called the replisome that contains multiple accessory subunits, such as the DNA clamp or helicases."
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10-06-2016, 07:28 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:47 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  I made no claims without evidence. I was simply explaining some of the basics of DNA to protein creation processes and systems while answering numerous questions.

You claim, repeatedly, of a "designer" and knowledge of said designer's "intent". You provide no evidence to support those claims.

One example:
(09-06-2016 02:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Did you know that a virus is malicious code that attacks cells. All part of the design. Perfection in this life was obviously not the intent of the Designer.

What Designer? What Intent? Why is a virus malicious?

I'll ask again:

(09-06-2016 08:03 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 02:33 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I always been a fan of science as well. I hold a degree in a field of applied science.

Which field?

(09-06-2016 02:33 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  In science, He is everywhere.

Define "he".

Cite scientific evidence to back up your assertion.

Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Mormons, Christians all claim to see their own god(s) everywhere. Why should we believe you and not them?


(10-06-2016 06:47 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  I was not ignoring refutations of my claims. No one was clearly providing explanations to my questions.

I saw plenty of answers. You just did not accept them.

(10-06-2016 06:47 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  DNA contains a wealth of information in the form of precisely sequenced chemical bases that scientist represent with the letters A, C, T, and G.

In a written language information is communicated by a precise arrangement of letters.

The chemical notations used in DNA directly represent the chemicals involved. Written language involves abstract concepts, not a physical recipe. The analogy is close but not accurate.

(10-06-2016 06:47 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  Back to my original question, what is the origin of this genetic information? Meaning where did this extraordinary genetic code come from?

It is an inherent property of the chemicals and their reactions. Are you asking why the chemicals react the way they do? Who makes them do so? Who designed them to do so?

(10-06-2016 06:47 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  Your Answer: DNA.
My Response: Please provide a source.

I did. If that answer is unacceptable then I suggest speaking with a scientist.

(10-06-2016 06:47 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  With all do respect, the source you provided, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA , and the links and references contained within, does not align with your responses to my questions. I read from this source in the past and I just re-read it again today since you posted it as a response to my question.

Then once again, I suggest speaking with someone more knowledgeable. (Preferably someone not associated with a creationist organization.)

You seem to be arguing that DNA and genetics are too complex, too complicated to have originated naturally.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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10-06-2016, 07:38 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:47 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 09:18 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I want you to think about this carefully.

While you have not called anyone names, you have done things that posters here take offense to:

You have made a large number of baseless claims with absolutely no evidence.
You have made extravagant claims without backing them up.
You have ignored refutations of your claims.

Most posters consider the above to be both dishonest and insulting. That is, I suspect, why you have received the responses you have.

ETA: You also posted dishonestly when you stated that your questions had not been answered. Multiple posters have given you answers to your questions.


There are eight questions not four.


DNA is a mixture of chemicals. It does not bear information. Chemicals react through natural processes. Saying DNA is a code and bears information is misleading.


Genetic information is our understanding of the chemical processes that cause DNA to function. It is an inherent property of the chemicals and their reactions. Again it is not a set of instructions or a code.


DNA.


Here:
DNA

DNA is self replicating through chemical processes.
It is not transferred to an assembly line.
It is not precisely instructed.
It forms itself into proteins through chemical reactions.
You insist on anthropomorphizing a chemical process.
There are no communication protocols.
There are no machines.
The only assembly reactions are the inherent nature of the chemicals.


The explanation is included in the above link.

I made no claims without evidence. I was simply explaining some of the basics of DNA to protein creation processes and systems while answering numerous questions.

I was not ignoring refutations of my claims. No one was clearly providing explanations to my questions. I was asking if these processes appeared random/natural or designed and I got a bunch of hate filled responses many times, side tracking response, insults, and the like. Then I asked for some explanations of how these processes and systems could happen naturally and I was getting similar responses.

Now that it appears we can start having calm reasonable discussion on this topic, hopefully without personal attacks and insults, my responses to your comments are below:

My Question 1. Where do the information bearing properties of DNA come from?

Your Answer: DNA is a mixture of chemicals. It does not bear information. Chemicals react through natural processes. Saying DNA is a code and bears information is misleading.

My response: DNA contains a wealth of information in the form of precisely sequenced chemical bases that scientist represent with the letters A, C, T, and G. In a written language information is communicated by a precise arrangement of letters. In the same way, the instruction necessary to assemble amino acids into proteins are conveyed by the sequences of chemicals arranged along the spine of the DNA. This chemical code is the most densely packed and elaborately detailed assembly of information in the known universe. These are genetic assembly instructions. For more information visit your source at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA

My Question 2. Please describe the origins of genetic information.

Your Answer: Genetic information is our understanding of the chemical processes that cause DNA to function. It is an inherent property of the chemicals and their reactions. Again it is not a set of instructions or a code.

My Response: Genetic information is stored within the chemical structure of the molecule DNA. The molecule consists of two backbones, which spiral around each other in the well-known double helix formation. Strings of four chemicals, called "bases", running along the backbones bridges between bases on opposite backbones, called "base pairs." It is the order, or "sequence" of the four bases along the DNA spine that provides the instructions for making the substances of the human body. The four chemical bases are referred to by the letters A, T, C and G, and their order literally "spells" out the genetic "code." The variable sequence of bases from individual to individual is one source of biological variation.

Each person has enough genetic information that, if it were stretched out, would be the equivalent of the distance from the earth to the sun seventy times over. That is 6.5 billion miles of compressed information contained in the human body. Therefore, genetic information has to be organized and packaged tightly, while still allowing access to appropriate genes. The DNA molecule stores this genetic information.

Back to my original question, what is the origin of this genetic information? Meaning where did this extraordinary genetic code come from?

My Question 3. DNA is located in a protein molecule. It takes DNA to build a protein. Which came first, the DNA or the protein?

Your Answer: DNA.

My Response: Please provide a source. Which came first the genetic information which creates proteins or the protein molecule genetic information is stored in? I have researched this question and cannot find a sound explanation of how this happened. Also, where did the first replicators arise? How did the transition to DNA and proteins, and the development of the genetic code, occur?

My Question 4. Please provide a step-by-step natural explanation of the process of how DNA is copied and transferred to an assembly line where amino acids are linked together precisely as instructed, then formed into a functional protein, then transported to an exact location in a protein machine prior to machine operation. Explain how all the transport systems work. Explain the sequences of operation, the communication protocol, the operations of the machines, the assembly instructions, energy harvesting,....

Your Answer: Here:
DNA

DNA is self replicating through chemical processes.
It is not transferred to an assembly line.
It is not precisely instructed.
It forms itself into proteins through chemical reactions.
You insist on anthropomorphizing a chemical process.
There are no communication protocols.
There are no machines.
The only assembly reactions are the inherent nature of the chemicals.

My Response:

With all do respect, the source you provided, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA , and the links and references contained within, does not align with your responses to my questions. I read from this source in the past and I just re-read it again today since you posted it as a response to my question.

Based on your source below are my responses and comments:

Your Statement: DNA is self replicating through chemical processes.

My Response: DNA replication is actually a very complex and complicated process. Based on your source you posted, DNA replication is explained: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_replication

Your Statements: "It is not transferred to an assembly line" and "The only assembly reactions are the inherent nature of the chemicals"

My Response: The assembly line I am referring to is a ribosome which, according to your source: "The ribosome is a complex molecular machine found within all living cells, that serves as the site of biological protein synthesis (translation). Ribosomes link amino acids together in the order specified by messenger RNA (mRNA) molecules. Ribosomes consist of two major components: the small ribosomal subunit, which reads the RNA, and the large subunit, which joins amino acids to form a polypeptide chain. For more information from your source see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribosome

Also, watch this short 3 minute 34 second video which details this process and shows the amino acid mechanical assembly line (ribosome) I am referring to (go to 1 minute 35 seconds of the video to see this process in action): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkdQhNdzHU

Your Statements: "It is not precisely instructed," "It forms itself into proteins through chemical reactions," "You insist on anthropomorphizing a chemical process," and "There are no communication protocols"

My Response: Reference your source for more information on how the protein is constructed and how the information is communicated and watch the short video which explains the basics of these operations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkdQhNdzHU

Your Statement: There are no machines.

My Response: The source you cited disagrees, stating, "Molecular motors are biological molecular machines that are the essential agents of movement in living organisms." Your source cites a lot of information about molecular machines and the various different types of machines.

More information from your source related to molecular machines and molecular motors:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_machine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_motor

Additionally, the spell checker (proof reading) function in the cell processes I referred to earlier are included in the source you cited as well: "In DNA replication, DNA-dependent DNA polymerases make copies of DNA polynucleotide chains. In order to preserve biological information, it is essential that the sequence of bases in each copy are precisely complementary to the sequence of bases in the template strand. Many DNA polymerases have a proofreading activity. Here, the polymerase recognizes the occasional mistakes in the synthesis reaction by the lack of base pairing between the mismatched nucleotides. If a mismatch is detected, a 3′ to 5′ exonuclease activity is activated and the incorrect base removed. In most organisms, DNA polymerases function in a large complex called the replisome that contains multiple accessory subunits, such as the DNA clamp or helicases."

Does god or sin modify viruses to circumvent vaccinations that we produce?

You've created an unfalsifiable reality, your assertions are dead in the water until you provide a clear way of determining if this alleged god exists and whether to determine if it's sin or god doing it.

You've also created a god out of sin, so now you have to provide proof for sin and god influencing viral mutation.

You are very confused. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-06-2016, 08:00 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 06:01 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 02:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no design trade-off for the human eye being wired backwards.


False dichotomy due to your lack of understanding of evolution.

Natural selection is neither random nor purposeful. Read a book. Drinking Beverage

I agree there is some evolution as part of the implementation of the design. There is definitely some change over time and mutation, many times which improves the system operations. Order becoming more orderly that is (which in a sense flies in the face of thermodynamics).

Yet more ignorance and misunderstanding. There is no issue with thermodynamics;
there is no sense in which evolution 'flies in the face of thermodynamics'.

Quote:Natural selection never explained origins.

And it wasn't intended to. So?

Quote:Even Darwin said if life is more complex than a glob of plasm, which is all they could see of a cell microscopically at the time in the mid-18th century, then his theory would fall apart.

Bullshit. Provide a citation or retract that claim.

Quote:Around 100 years later, in 1953, DNA was discovered and years and decades following breakthroughs in the understanding of this immense genetic information were made. DNA is specified and complex beyond imagination.

Yet another unsupported claim. It's just chemistry.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-06-2016, 09:32 AM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2016 09:41 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
I get so exhausted with these types. They just read from what amounts to a script, and then go on to list huge amounts of information about some biological process, even after they're told people here have degrees in this field, as if our biology programs didn't include explaining to us exactly what DNA was and how it operated... and in the end, their entire argument still consists of, "Gorsh, Mickey, this biology stuff sure is complicated!"

And yet every one of these guys manages to conflate abiogenesis with evolution, insists on sticking with their own asserted definitions of things that don't follow the actual definitions (so they can insert their woo into the processes), and refuses to listen to credible sources. But I guess we're stuck talking about how just gosh-darn complicated DNA is, and how it just couldn't have emerged via natural processes...

I still don't feel like arguing with yet another ID/IC proponent on here, but I'll point you to NASA's abiogenesis research department so you can get a feel for what scientists really think on the subject:

How did life on Earth get started? Three new papers co-authored by Mike Russell, a research scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., strengthen the case that Earth's first life began at alkaline hydrothermal vents at the bottom of oceans. Scientists are interested in understanding early life on Earth because if we ever hope to find life on other worlds -- especially icy worlds with subsurface oceans such as Jupiter's moon Europa and Saturn's Enceladus -- we need to know what chemical signatures to look for.

Two papers published recently in the journal
Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B provide more detail on the chemical and precursor metabolic reactions that have to take place to pave the pathway for life. Russell and his co-authors describe how the interactions between the earliest oceans and alkaline hydrothermal fluids likely produced acetate (comparable to vinegar). The acetate is a product of methane and hydrogen from the alkaline hydrothermal vents and carbon dioxide dissolved in the surrounding ocean. Once this early chemical pathway was forged, acetate could become the basis of other biological molecules. They also describe how two kinds of "nano-engines" that create organic carbon and polymers -- energy currency of the first cells -- could have been assembled from inorganic minerals.

A paper published in the journal
Biochimica et Biophysica Acta analyzes the structural similarity between the most ancient enzymes of life and minerals precipitated at these alkaline vents, an indication that the first life didn't have to invent its first catalysts and engines.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2013-235

Edit to Add: Try educating yourself on the state of research, in all seriousness. They've come a long way toward solving the problem. See, for instance:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3718341/

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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10-06-2016, 02:11 PM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2016 02:20 PM by CDF47.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 09:32 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I get so exhausted with these types. They just read from what amounts to a script, and then go on to list huge amounts of information about some biological process, even after they're told people here have degrees in this field, as if our biology programs didn't include explaining to us exactly what DNA was and how it operated... and in the end, their entire argument still consists of, "Gorsh, Mickey, this biology stuff sure is complicated!"

And yet every one of these guys manages to conflate abiogenesis with evolution, insists on sticking with their own asserted definitions of things that don't follow the actual definitions (so they can insert their woo into the processes), and refuses to listen to credible sources. But I guess we're stuck talking about how just gosh-darn complicated DNA is, and how it just couldn't have emerged via natural processes...

I still don't feel like arguing with yet another ID/IC proponent on here, but I'll point you to NASA's abiogenesis research department so you can get a feel for what scientists really think on the subject:

How did life on Earth get started? Three new papers co-authored by Mike Russell, a research scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., strengthen the case that Earth's first life began at alkaline hydrothermal vents at the bottom of oceans. Scientists are interested in understanding early life on Earth because if we ever hope to find life on other worlds -- especially icy worlds with subsurface oceans such as Jupiter's moon Europa and Saturn's Enceladus -- we need to know what chemical signatures to look for.

Two papers published recently in the journal
Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B provide more detail on the chemical and precursor metabolic reactions that have to take place to pave the pathway for life. Russell and his co-authors describe how the interactions between the earliest oceans and alkaline hydrothermal fluids likely produced acetate (comparable to vinegar). The acetate is a product of methane and hydrogen from the alkaline hydrothermal vents and carbon dioxide dissolved in the surrounding ocean. Once this early chemical pathway was forged, acetate could become the basis of other biological molecules. They also describe how two kinds of "nano-engines" that create organic carbon and polymers -- energy currency of the first cells -- could have been assembled from inorganic minerals.

A paper published in the journal
Biochimica et Biophysica Acta analyzes the structural similarity between the most ancient enzymes of life and minerals precipitated at these alkaline vents, an indication that the first life didn't have to invent its first catalysts and engines.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2013-235

Edit to Add: Try educating yourself on the state of research, in all seriousness. They've come a long way toward solving the problem. See, for instance:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3718341/

Very interesting article. Great how it explains how simple systems become more and more complex and how more complex systems become more complex more effectively. They also become more replicatively stable as the systems become more complex. Incredible.

Interesting conclusion as well; "In conclusion, it seems probably that we will never know the precise historic path by which life on the Earth emerged, but, very much in the Darwinian tradition, it seems we can now specify the essence of the ahistoric principles by which that process came about. Just as Darwin, in the very simplest of terms, pointed out how natural selection enabled simple life to evolve into complex life, so the recently proposed general theory of evolution points out in simplest terms how simple, but fragile, replicating systems could have complexified into the intricate chemical systems of life. But, as discussed earlier, a detailed understanding of that process will have to wait until ongoing studies in systems chemistry reveal both the classes of chemical materials and the kinds of chemical pathways that simple replicating systems are able to follow in their drive towards greater complexity and replicative stability."

Thanks for sharing.
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