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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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10-06-2016, 05:17 PM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2016 05:22 PM by Fatbaldhobbit.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 04:41 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Those were pagan religions which had creation stories straight out of "Cat and the Hat."

The Cat in the Hat is a coherent, well written work of fiction aimed at children. It is a classic written by a master storyteller.

The bible has rape, incest, murder, genocide, infanticide, slavery and more. All ordained by god.

In Dr. Seuss stories the Who people in Who-ville aren't taking slaves and raping virgins.

(10-06-2016 04:41 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Below is a comparison of Genesis 1 creation to science:

There is no science in genesis. There is no comparison.

Let's look at one example:

In genesis, the sun and moon are created on the fourth day.
Plants are made on the third day.
No sun, no photosynthesis, no plants.

SAB: science and history

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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10-06-2016, 05:21 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 03:08 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Can you answer these questions:

1. Where do the information bearing properties of DNA come from?

Natural selection.

Quote:2. Please describe the origins of genetic information.

Natural selection.

Quote:3. DNA is located in a protein molecule.

No, it is not. DNA is sugar with a phosphate group connecting purines and pyrimidines in a structure defined by chemical properties.

Quote:It takes DNA to build a protein. Which came first, the DNA or the protein?

See above.

Quote:4. Please provide a step-by-step natural explanation of the process of how DNA is copied and transferred to an assembly line where amino acids are linked together precisely as instructed, then formed into a functional protein, then transported to an exact location in a protein machine prior to machine operation. Explain how all the transport systems work. Explain the sequences of operation, the communication protocol, the operations of the machines, the assembly instructions, energy harvesting,....

Requires a book-length answer, so read a book.

Quote:Please explain how this all happened naturally.

By natural selection, step by step over eons.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-06-2016, 05:26 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 04:50 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 04:16 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Where does the information come from? DNA code (genetic information) provides very specific and complex programming to precisely link strings of amino acids together (often long strings) to serve as specific components as part of a machine in the cell after forming into proteins. Where did the highly specific and complex information which creates highly specific and complex molecular machines and extremely efficient and effective motors come from? These machines are also irreducibly complex, in that if one component fails, the overall machine is either degraded or fails to function.

To try to say redox reactions developed this extremely vast, highly specified, and incredibly complex code, processes, components, subsystems, and systems makes no sense to me. There are no other scientists making that claim either.

Thanks for taking the time though to provide answers as you see them without throwing out insults or anything like that. I read the information you provided and learned some things about redox reactings, so thank you.

DNA isn't "programming" nor is it "information" in the sense you're using it. DNA is a molecule comprised of proteins that undergoes a chemical reaction to reproduce itself. It's redox chemistry. It's the same reason any other redox reaction is "programmed" or contains the "information" necessary for the chemical reaction to proceed.

Your special pleading assigns a special significance to one molecule undergoing a chemical reaction but not all other chemical reactions.


I'm a scientist and I'm telling you that the redox chemistry that allows you to live, is the same redox chemistry that allows a nematode to survive and a plant to photosyntheisze and iron to rust.

Life is a unique form of self-replicating chemistry that has evolved over billions of years into the complex series of reactions we see today.

I know that DNA is a protein molecule which houses genetic information. That information provides the programming/instructions to build the amino acid chains which then are instructed to fold into specified shapes which are then instructed to a specific location of a larger assembly of components which then serve as molecular machines inside the living cell. There is also energy harvesting systems, ATP,..., but probably best to focus the discussion on these types of molecular machine systems for now. I understand the A, C, T, and G 4-digit code chemical bases as well. I read over the redox information your provided but I do not see how that explains the complexity of the systems we are discussing.

It is great to be discussing this topic with scientists. I am a systems engineer with education and background in mechanical engineering.
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10-06-2016, 05:37 PM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2016 05:45 PM by CDF47.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 05:17 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 04:41 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Those were pagan religions which had creation stories straight out of "Cat and the Hat."

The Cat in the Hat is a coherent, well written work of fiction aimed at children. It is a classic written by a master storyteller.

The bible has rape, incest, murder, genocide, infanticide, slavery and more. All ordained by god.

In Dr. Seuss stories the Who people in Who-ville aren't taking slaves and raping virgins.

(10-06-2016 04:41 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Below is a comparison of Genesis 1 creation to science:

There is no science in genesis. There is no comparison.

Let's look at one example:

In genesis, the sun and moon are created on the fourth day.
Plants are made on the third day.
No sun, no photosynthesis, no plants.

SAB: science and history

I think you misunderstand the Bible. I've read it cover to cover and study it on a weekly and often daily basis. The wickedness of man lead to the things you speak of and due to the temptations and works of evil spirits. Man fell due to disobedience to God. Sin entered the world and death is the punishment for sin. Redemption is through grace of the Lord for those who truly believe and follow Him and repent. The righteous die once and the wicked die twice. Just some very basics.

The chart I provided shows the breakdown and explanation of creation, day by day based on Genesis and how it aligns with science.

Day 3: Plant life was created on the third day (Genesis 1:11-13, ~1.0 x 109 years ago). These verses are probably the strongest argument for the day-age interpretation. The verse says quite clearly that the earth sprouted (or brought forth) vegetation and fruit trees bearing fruit. The English word translated "vegetation" on the third day comes from the Hebrew word deshe', which refers to small plants, such as grasses and herbs. The other word, ‛eśeb, translated "plants" is even more generic, referring to any kind of green plant. So, the "day" encompasses the time from the formation of the first plants until the formation of the angiosperms. The process described is clearly similar to what we see today. Fruit trees take years to bear fruit, testifying that the third "day" could not possibly be just 24 hours long, as claimed by young earth creationists. Recent scientific evidence shows that plant life began on the land ~1 billion years ago (12)

Day 4: Next the translucent cloud layer was removed so that the sun, moon and stars shown through. Notice the unusual construction in Genesis 1:14 which states, "Then God said, 'Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;'" "Let there be" is an unusual way to describe de novo creation (see also verse 1:3). I believe that at this point God removed the translucent cloud cover from the planet to allow the stars, moon, and Sun to be seen from the surface of the earth (the frame of reference of all Genesis 1). The text then reiterates what God had already done in Genesis 1:1 regarding the creation of the sun, moon, and stars. The time frame describes events over days, seasons, and years - obviously more than 24 hours long.

I believe in Old Earth Creationism, not the fallacy of the 6000 year old earth and global flood and that.
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10-06-2016, 05:44 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 05:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 03:08 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Can you answer these questions:

1. Where do the information bearing properties of DNA come from?

Natural selection.

Quote:2. Please describe the origins of genetic information.

Natural selection.

Quote:3. DNA is located in a protein molecule.

No, it is not. DNA is sugar with a phosphate group connecting purines and pyrimidines in a structure defined by chemical properties.

Quote:It takes DNA to build a protein. Which came first, the DNA or the protein?

See above.

Quote:4. Please provide a step-by-step natural explanation of the process of how DNA is copied and transferred to an assembly line where amino acids are linked together precisely as instructed, then formed into a functional protein, then transported to an exact location in a protein machine prior to machine operation. Explain how all the transport systems work. Explain the sequences of operation, the communication protocol, the operations of the machines, the assembly instructions, energy harvesting,....

Requires a book-length answer, so read a book.

Quote:Please explain how this all happened naturally.

By natural selection, step by step over eons.

Natural selection does not explain those things.
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10-06-2016, 05:52 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 05:26 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 04:50 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  DNA isn't "programming" nor is it "information" in the sense you're using it. DNA is a molecule comprised of proteins that undergoes a chemical reaction to reproduce itself. It's redox chemistry. It's the same reason any other redox reaction is "programmed" or contains the "information" necessary for the chemical reaction to proceed.

Your special pleading assigns a special significance to one molecule undergoing a chemical reaction but not all other chemical reactions.


I'm a scientist and I'm telling you that the redox chemistry that allows you to live, is the same redox chemistry that allows a nematode to survive and a plant to photosyntheisze and iron to rust.

Life is a unique form of self-replicating chemistry that has evolved over billions of years into the complex series of reactions we see today.

I know that DNA is a protein molecule which houses genetic information. That information provides the programming/instructions to build the amino acid chains which then are instructed to fold into specified shapes which are then instructed to a specific location of a larger assembly of components which then serve as molecular machines inside the living cell. There is also energy harvesting systems, ATP,..., but probably best to focus the discussion on these types of molecular machine systems for now. I understand the A, C, T, and G 4-digit code chemical bases as well. I read over the redox information your provided but I do not see how that explains the complexity of the systems we are discussing.

It is great to be discussing this topic with scientists. I am a systems engineer with education and background in mechanical engineering.

Say it with me: DNA is not information and does not emulate information in the sense that it "codes" or "programs" anything. Computers and software code to produce a process and emulate the way chemical reactions proceed.

CaSiO3 + CO2 -> CaCO3 + SiO2

^ nothing is coded into this chemical reaction and it isn't programmed

It's the same thing for the replication of DNA (which produces the chemical reactions necessary to replicate itself). Both are redox chemistry. One happens biologically and one abiotically.

You are anthropomorphizing the process by which DNA replicates. You are assigning terms to the chemical and biological functions that assign your religious biases to it.

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10-06-2016, 05:52 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 05:44 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 05:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  Natural selection.


Natural selection.


No, it is not. DNA is sugar with a phosphate group connecting purines and pyrimidines in a structure defined by chemical properties.


See above.


Requires a book-length answer, so read a book.


By natural selection, step by step over eons.

Natural selection does not explain those things.

Yes, it does.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-06-2016, 05:56 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 05:52 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 05:26 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I know that DNA is a protein molecule which houses genetic information. That information provides the programming/instructions to build the amino acid chains which then are instructed to fold into specified shapes which are then instructed to a specific location of a larger assembly of components which then serve as molecular machines inside the living cell. There is also energy harvesting systems, ATP,..., but probably best to focus the discussion on these types of molecular machine systems for now. I understand the A, C, T, and G 4-digit code chemical bases as well. I read over the redox information your provided but I do not see how that explains the complexity of the systems we are discussing.

It is great to be discussing this topic with scientists. I am a systems engineer with education and background in mechanical engineering.

Say it with me: DNA is not information and does not emulate information in the sense that it "codes" or "programs" anything. Computers and software code to produce a process and emulate the way chemical reactions proceed.

CaSiO3 + CO2 -> CaCO3 + SiO2

^ nothing is coded into this chemical reaction and it isn't programmed

It's the same thing for the replication of DNA (which produces the chemical reactions necessary to replicate itself). Both are redox chemistry. One happens biologically and one abiotically.

You are anthropomorphizing the process by which DNA replicates. You are assigning terms to the chemical and biological functions that assign your religious biases to it.

I said DNA is a molecule which houses genetic information that instructs those processes. This much is absolutely true and is cited by every source out there.

Definition below:

DNA) is a molecule that carries most of the genetic instructions used in the growth, development, functioning and reproduction of all known living organisms and many viruses. DNA and RNA are nucleic acids; alongside proteins and complex carbohydrates, they are one of the three major types of macromolecule that are essential for all known forms of life. Most DNA molecules consist of two biopolymer strands coiled around each other to form a double helix. The two DNA strands are known as polynucleotides since they are composed of simpler units called nucleotides.[2] Each nucleotide is composed of a nitrogen-containing nucleobase—either cytosine ©, guanine (G), adenine (A), or thymine (T)—as well as a sugar called deoxyribose and a phosphate group. The nucleotides are joined to one another in a chain by covalent bonds between the sugar of one nucleotide and the phosphate of the next, resulting in an alternating sugar-phosphate backbone. According to base pairing rules (A with T, and C with G), hydrogen bonds bind the nitrogenous bases of the two separate polynucleotide strands to make double-stranded DNA. The total amount of related DNA base pairs on Earth is estimated at 5.0 x 1037, and weighs 50 billion tonnes.[3] In comparison, the total mass of the biosphere has been estimated to be as much as 4 TtC (trillion tons of carbon).[4]
DNA stores biological information. The DNA backbone is resistant to cleavage, and both strands of the double-stranded structure store the same biological information. Biological information is replicated as the two strands are separated. A significant portion of DNA (more than 98% for humans) is non-coding, meaning that these sections do not serve as patterns for protein sequences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA

Also, regarding DNA and redox chemistry:

The transport of charge through the DNA base pair stack offers a route to carry out redox chemistry at a distance. Here we describe characteristics of this chemistry that have been elucidated and how this chemistry may be utilized within the cell. The shallow distance dependence associated with these redox reactions permits DNA-mediated signaling over long molecular distances in the genome and facilitates the activation of redox-sensitive transcription factors globally in response to oxidative stress. The long-range funneling of oxidative damage to sites of low oxidation potential in the genome also may provide a means of protection within the cell. Furthermore, the sensitivity of DNA charge transport to perturbations in base pair stacking, as may arise with base lesions and mismatches, may be used as a route to scan the genome for damage as a first step in DNA repair. Thus, the ability of double helical DNA, in mediating redox chemistry at a distance, provides a natural mechanism for redox sensing and signaling in the genome.

This is not quite how you described.
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10-06-2016, 05:59 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 05:52 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 05:26 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I know that DNA is a protein molecule which houses genetic information. That information provides the programming/instructions to build the amino acid chains which then are instructed to fold into specified shapes which are then instructed to a specific location of a larger assembly of components which then serve as molecular machines inside the living cell. There is also energy harvesting systems, ATP,..., but probably best to focus the discussion on these types of molecular machine systems for now. I understand the A, C, T, and G 4-digit code chemical bases as well. I read over the redox information your provided but I do not see how that explains the complexity of the systems we are discussing.

It is great to be discussing this topic with scientists. I am a systems engineer with education and background in mechanical engineering.

Say it with me: DNA is not information and does not emulate information in the sense that it "codes" or "programs" anything. Computers and software code to produce a process and emulate the way chemical reactions proceed.

CaSiO3 + CO2 -> CaCO3 + SiO2

^ nothing is coded into this chemical reaction and it isn't programmed

It's the same thing for the replication of DNA (which produces the chemical reactions necessary to replicate itself). Both are redox chemistry. One happens biologically and one abiotically.

You are anthropomorphizing the process by which DNA replicates. You are assigning terms to the chemical and biological functions that assign your religious biases to it.

Are you familiar with molecular machines?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_machine
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10-06-2016, 06:00 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 05:37 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I think you misunderstand the Bible. I've read it cover to cover and study it on a weekly and often daily basis.

Have you read Bart Ehrman? Do you know how the bible was assembled? How Orthodoxy was established? Do you know who wrote the books you are worshiping?

(10-06-2016 05:37 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  The wickedness of man lead to the things you speak of and due to the temptations and works of evil spirits.

Not according to the bible. According to the bible god created evil. (We'll test you on this one. If you know the bible so well, you'll know the quote I'm referring to.)

If god created man, he created man's sinful nature.
If god is omniscient and omnipotent, he knew man would be sinful and allowed it to happen.

Hell, in Exodus, Pharaoh repented and god hardened his heart. So even if man resists temptation, god can make him sin.

(10-06-2016 05:37 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Man fell due to disobedience to God. Sin entered the world and death is the punishment for sin. Redemption is through grace of the Lord for those who truly believe and follow Him and repent. The righteous die once and the wicked die twice. Just some very basics.

Spare me your sermon. I was raised roman catholic. I know the drill.

Do you honestly believe Vicarious Redemption is ethical and moral?

What about Original Sin?
Let's say your great grandfather murdered a man. Should you be executed or imprisoned for it? Is that morality?

What about Passover? How many Egyptian babies were killed by god?
After god forced Pharaoh to sin. So god wanted to kill those Egyptians.

How about those Amalekite virgins Moses gave to his soldiers?
Were they happy for the grace of god?

(10-06-2016 05:37 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  The chart I provided shows the breakdown and explanation of creation, day by day based on Genesis and how it aligns with the science.

You are shoehorning modern science onto the ramblings of illiterate desert primitives.



Oh and the quote I mentioned: Isaiah 45:7.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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