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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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10-06-2016, 06:00 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
Let's put another point out there too. Creationists point to life and say "it's obviously designed" but don't point to a quartz crystal and say the same thing. Why? The Quartz crystal is symmetrical and is comprised of a regular and ordered repetition of SiO2 tetrahedra. Creationists will point to the watch example and say a watch in a field would be evidence of a designer, but this ignores that we observe how watches are made and what their function is for. If no watch had ever been made by man and no process was known by which man could or would make it, there would be no reason to assign its existence to a designer.

What this means is that if one wants to argue that life is designed, you have to demonstrate who or what designed it and for what purpose. You can't use "design" to argue for the existence of a designer without showing that the designer exists.

Trying to argue against evolution and the natural processes by which life can arise (the hypotheses of abiogenesis), is NOT the same as supporting creationism or arguing for a god/designer. This is a shifting of the burden of proof. You invoke design, you have to provide evidence to demonstrate design and designer.

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10-06-2016, 06:01 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 05:56 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 05:52 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Say it with me: DNA is not information and does not emulate information in the sense that it "codes" or "programs" anything. Computers and software code to produce a process and emulate the way chemical reactions proceed.

CaSiO3 + CO2 -> CaCO3 + SiO2

^ nothing is coded into this chemical reaction and it isn't programmed

It's the same thing for the replication of DNA (which produces the chemical reactions necessary to replicate itself). Both are redox chemistry. One happens biologically and one abiotically.

You are anthropomorphizing the process by which DNA replicates. You are assigning terms to the chemical and biological functions that assign your religious biases to it.

I said DNA is a molecule which houses genetic information that instructs those processes. This much is absolutely true and is cited by every source out there.

Definition below:

DNA) is a molecule that carries most of the genetic instructions used in the growth, development, functioning and reproduction of all known living organisms and many viruses. DNA and RNA are nucleic acids; alongside proteins and complex carbohydrates, they are one of the three major types of macromolecule that are essential for all known forms of life. Most DNA molecules consist of two biopolymer strands coiled around each other to form a double helix. The two DNA strands are known as polynucleotides since they are composed of simpler units called nucleotides.[2] Each nucleotide is composed of a nitrogen-containing nucleobase—either cytosine ©, guanine (G), adenine (A), or thymine (T)—as well as a sugar called deoxyribose and a phosphate group. The nucleotides are joined to one another in a chain by covalent bonds between the sugar of one nucleotide and the phosphate of the next, resulting in an alternating sugar-phosphate backbone. According to base pairing rules (A with T, and C with G), hydrogen bonds bind the nitrogenous bases of the two separate polynucleotide strands to make double-stranded DNA. The total amount of related DNA base pairs on Earth is estimated at 5.0 x 1037, and weighs 50 billion tonnes.[3] In comparison, the total mass of the biosphere has been estimated to be as much as 4 TtC (trillion tons of carbon).[4]
DNA stores biological information. The DNA backbone is resistant to cleavage, and both strands of the double-stranded structure store the same biological information. Biological information is replicated as the two strands are separated. A significant portion of DNA (more than 98% for humans) is non-coding, meaning that these sections do not serve as patterns for protein sequences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA

Also, regarding DNA and redox chemistry:

The transport of charge through the DNA base pair stack offers a route to carry out redox chemistry at a distance. Here we describe characteristics of this chemistry that have been elucidated and how this chemistry may be utilized within the cell. The shallow distance dependence associated with these redox reactions permits DNA-mediated signaling over long molecular distances in the genome and facilitates the activation of redox-sensitive transcription factors globally in response to oxidative stress. The long-range funneling of oxidative damage to sites of low oxidation potential in the genome also may provide a means of protection within the cell. Furthermore, the sensitivity of DNA charge transport to perturbations in base pair stacking, as may arise with base lesions and mismatches, may be used as a route to scan the genome for damage as a first step in DNA repair. Thus, the ability of double helical DNA, in mediating redox chemistry at a distance, provides a natural mechanism for redox sensing and signaling in the genome.

This is not quite how you described.

I know what DNA is and how it works. You don't seem to know what redox chemistry is.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-06-2016, 06:04 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 05:59 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 05:52 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Say it with me: DNA is not information and does not emulate information in the sense that it "codes" or "programs" anything. Computers and software code to produce a process and emulate the way chemical reactions proceed.

CaSiO3 + CO2 -> CaCO3 + SiO2

^ nothing is coded into this chemical reaction and it isn't programmed

It's the same thing for the replication of DNA (which produces the chemical reactions necessary to replicate itself). Both are redox chemistry. One happens biologically and one abiotically.

You are anthropomorphizing the process by which DNA replicates. You are assigning terms to the chemical and biological functions that assign your religious biases to it.

Are you familiar with molecular machines?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_machine

Molecular machines also work as a result of chemistry, whether synthetic or biological.

Your finger moves because of chemistry. You think because of chemistry.

You're still applying extra-purpose to processes because of your biases

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-06-2016, 06:08 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
It is most unfortunate that people describe DNA as coding for things or as a storage vessel for information, but that is because it is a lazy way of trying to concisely describe the chemistry.

It would be just as wrong if I say that a car uses gasoline to make the wheels turn. It's not entirely wrong because gasoline is fuel that is necessary, but it's a broad over-generalization that does not explain how or why the fuel is necessary or the engine or transmission or torque converter or differential or axle or wheels.

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10-06-2016, 06:15 PM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2016 06:26 PM by Chas.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 05:26 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I know that DNA is a protein molecule which houses genetic information.

DNA is not a protein.

Quote:That information provides the programming/instructions to build the amino acid chains which then are instructed to fold into specified shapes

No, proteins fold by their chemical structure - there are no instructions.

Quote:which are then instructed to a specific location of a larger assembly of components which then serve as molecular machines inside the living cell.

No, they are not instructed to a specific location.

Quote:There is also energy harvesting systems, ATP,..., but probably best to focus the discussion on these types of molecular machine systems for now. I understand the A, C, T, and G 4-digit code chemical bases as well. I read over the redox information your provided but I do not see how that explains the complexity of the systems we are discussing.

Natural selection explains them.

Quote:It is great to be discussing this topic with scientists. I am a systems engineer with education and background in mechanical engineering.

Do you understand how crystals form? There are no instructions - it is chemistry. Likewise for organic compounds.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-06-2016, 06:17 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:00 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 05:37 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I think you misunderstand the Bible. I've read it cover to cover and study it on a weekly and often daily basis.

Have you read Bart Ehrman? Do you know how the bible was assembled? How Orthodoxy was established? Do you know who wrote the books you are worshiping?

(10-06-2016 05:37 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  The wickedness of man lead to the things you speak of and due to the temptations and works of evil spirits.

Not according to the bible. According to the bible god created evil. (We'll test you on this one. If you know the bible so well, you'll know the quote I'm referring to.)

If god created man, he created man's sinful nature.
If god is omniscient and omnipotent, he knew man would be sinful and allowed it to happen.

Hell, in Exodus, Pharaoh repented and god hardened his heart. So even if man resists temptation, god can make him sin.

(10-06-2016 05:37 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Man fell due to disobedience to God. Sin entered the world and death is the punishment for sin. Redemption is through grace of the Lord for those who truly believe and follow Him and repent. The righteous die once and the wicked die twice. Just some very basics.

Spare me your sermon. I was raised roman catholic. I know the drill.

Do you honestly believe Vicarious Redemption is ethical and moral?

What about Original Sin?
Let's say your great grandfather murdered a man. Should you be executed or imprisoned for it? Is that morality?

What about Passover? How many Egyptian babies were killed by god?
After god forced Pharaoh to sin. So god wanted to kill those Egyptians.

How about those Amalekite virgins Moses gave to his soldiers?
Were they happy for the grace of god?

(10-06-2016 05:37 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  The chart I provided shows the breakdown and explanation of creation, day by day based on Genesis and how it aligns with the science.

You are shoehorning modern science onto the ramblings of illiterate desert primitives.



Oh and the quote I mentioned: Isaiah 45:7.

Yes, the Book was written by 40 authors over a 1500 year period. I have studied and read about many of the writers.

Evil began with Lucifer's prideful heart and his rebellion in Heaven where he brought an army of 1/3 of the angels in Heaven and was then cast out.

Man was a creation on earth and the devil was allowed to tempt man. The devil, his evil fallen angels, and the wicked people will be destroyed in the second death.

It was pharaoh who actually hardened his heart against the Lord and the Lord knew that would happen. Read 1 Samuel 6:6.
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10-06-2016, 06:20 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:00 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Let's put another point out there too. Creationists point to life and say "it's obviously designed" but don't point to a quartz crystal and say the same thing. Why? The Quartz crystal is symmetrical and is comprised of a regular and ordered repetition of SiO2 tetrahedra. Creationists will point to the watch example and say a watch in a field would be evidence of a designer, but this ignores that we observe how watches are made and what their function is for. If no watch had ever been made by man and no process was known by which man could or would make it, there would be no reason to assign its existence to a designer.

What this means is that if one wants to argue that life is designed, you have to demonstrate who or what designed it and for what purpose. You can't use "design" to argue for the existence of a designer without showing that the designer exists.

Trying to argue against evolution and the natural processes by which life can arise (the hypotheses of abiogenesis), is NOT the same as supporting creationism or arguing for a god/designer. This is a shifting of the burden of proof. You invoke design, you have to provide evidence to demonstrate design and designer.

I say living systems, the universe, the earth, the stars, planets, animals, plants, and everything in it were designed by the Creator. Study the fine-tuning of the universe.
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10-06-2016, 06:20 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 05:44 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Natural selection does not explain those things.

Yes, it does.

Recombination and mutation change the genome. That which works survives in the genome, that which does not work does not survive.

That is natural selection in a nutshell.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-06-2016, 06:21 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:01 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 05:56 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I said DNA is a molecule which houses genetic information that instructs those processes. This much is absolutely true and is cited by every source out there.

Definition below:

DNA) is a molecule that carries most of the genetic instructions used in the growth, development, functioning and reproduction of all known living organisms and many viruses. DNA and RNA are nucleic acids; alongside proteins and complex carbohydrates, they are one of the three major types of macromolecule that are essential for all known forms of life. Most DNA molecules consist of two biopolymer strands coiled around each other to form a double helix. The two DNA strands are known as polynucleotides since they are composed of simpler units called nucleotides.[2] Each nucleotide is composed of a nitrogen-containing nucleobase—either cytosine ©, guanine (G), adenine (A), or thymine (T)—as well as a sugar called deoxyribose and a phosphate group. The nucleotides are joined to one another in a chain by covalent bonds between the sugar of one nucleotide and the phosphate of the next, resulting in an alternating sugar-phosphate backbone. According to base pairing rules (A with T, and C with G), hydrogen bonds bind the nitrogenous bases of the two separate polynucleotide strands to make double-stranded DNA. The total amount of related DNA base pairs on Earth is estimated at 5.0 x 1037, and weighs 50 billion tonnes.[3] In comparison, the total mass of the biosphere has been estimated to be as much as 4 TtC (trillion tons of carbon).[4]
DNA stores biological information. The DNA backbone is resistant to cleavage, and both strands of the double-stranded structure store the same biological information. Biological information is replicated as the two strands are separated. A significant portion of DNA (more than 98% for humans) is non-coding, meaning that these sections do not serve as patterns for protein sequences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA

Also, regarding DNA and redox chemistry:

The transport of charge through the DNA base pair stack offers a route to carry out redox chemistry at a distance. Here we describe characteristics of this chemistry that have been elucidated and how this chemistry may be utilized within the cell. The shallow distance dependence associated with these redox reactions permits DNA-mediated signaling over long molecular distances in the genome and facilitates the activation of redox-sensitive transcription factors globally in response to oxidative stress. The long-range funneling of oxidative damage to sites of low oxidation potential in the genome also may provide a means of protection within the cell. Furthermore, the sensitivity of DNA charge transport to perturbations in base pair stacking, as may arise with base lesions and mismatches, may be used as a route to scan the genome for damage as a first step in DNA repair. Thus, the ability of double helical DNA, in mediating redox chemistry at a distance, provides a natural mechanism for redox sensing and signaling in the genome.

This is not quite how you described.

I know what DNA is and how it works. You don't seem to know what redox chemistry is.

I did not know much about redox chemistry but I am reading about it and how it is included in the DNA process. The information above is based on a scientific article covering the topic.
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10-06-2016, 06:23 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:04 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 05:59 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Are you familiar with molecular machines?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_machine

Molecular machines also work as a result of chemistry, whether synthetic or biological.

Your finger moves because of chemistry. You think because of chemistry.

You're still applying extra-purpose to processes because of your biases

That is like saying if I take a bunch of metal, put it in a box, shake it really hard for a few years, out will come a fully functional 747 jumbo jet. A 747 jumbo jet is a joke in specificity and complexity compared to living systems.
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